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Post by mjjfan810 on Aug 8, 2017 12:42:45 GMT
It is quite obvious to me that their marriage was an arrangement, he paid her money to carry his children. I think MJ didn't exactly help matters by marrying her, instead of just being truthful about the arrangement. I think it just added to peoples general scepticism about all things MJ.
It also made for uncomfortable viewing watching MJ justify to Bashir as to why Debbie doesn't see the children. If he had said from day one that she was a surrogate, nobody would've batted an eyelid.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Aug 8, 2017 12:54:44 GMT
Truthful to who? To you? Me? The public? Because I am pretty sure he was truthful to Debbie about the nature of the arrangement. Other than that he did not owe us, the public a damn thing regarding his marriage.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Aug 8, 2017 13:11:40 GMT
No one is saying he owed anything to anyone, but the marriage looked phoney from the get-go, and I just think he could've avoided a lot of the criticism he faced after the Bashir documentary aired if he had never married Debbie in the first place and just been upfront about the nature of their relationship. Why lie to people? It's only going to come back to bite you in the ass, and it did with MJ.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Aug 8, 2017 13:27:02 GMT
I just think people sometimes do not know their place. Celebrities do not owe us a thing about their private lives.
I also think it it is naive to think that if he had said Debbie was a surrogate people wouldn't have attacked him. Then they would have used THAT to attack him.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 8, 2017 13:40:52 GMT
I think people would have used that against him indeed. They would have said something like 'well so the marriage with LMP was fake too' etc.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Aug 8, 2017 14:46:07 GMT
I think people would have used that against him indeed. They would have said something like 'well so the marriage with LMP was fake too' etc. I'm not sure I follow. Surely a facade of a marriage to Debbie is more likely to make sceptics think the LMP marriage was fake too? For the record, I've never doubted the sincereity of his marriage to Lisa, nor do I feel it is my place to judge MJ for marrying Debbie to have his kids. I just am curious/nosey as to why he felt the need to marry her when it was obvious there was no romantic interest between the two. I also think it gave more fuel for haters and made a bit of a spectacle of MJs first foray into fatherhood.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 8, 2017 15:13:01 GMT
Maybe,people might think that he was only using Lisa for having his children if he admitted that Debbie was a surrogate. But that's just speculation.
Wasn't it Katherine who wanted MJ to marry Debbie so she wouldn't have children out of wedlock or something?
But I agree, he should have just been honest. It's easier to just tell the truth so you don't have to make up more lies in the end. MJ contradicted himself in the Bashir documentary a few times.
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Post by Angel of Light on Aug 8, 2017 15:58:20 GMT
I think Michael felt it was his "duty" to marry the woman who was carrying his child...probably due to his mother getting into his head.
But honestly...I don't really care why he married her. It's none of our business and it worked for them for the time being, and when it stopped working they separated. They both consented to their arrangement and that's all that matters. Michael didn't owe Bashit or us an explanation. I don't think he lied, or was trying to, in that interview. It was pretty clear that Michael didn't want to step over any boundaries concerning Debbie since she was very adamant about her privacy. I think Michael was trying to honor that in the best way that he could when he was unfairly put on the spot about this by that pathetic excuse for a journalist.
Michael also contradicted himself about the surrogate for Blanket in that interview. But I don't think he did it to be deceitful, I just think he wanted to honor the privacy of the surrogate and didn't want to say anything that would reveal her identity. That is totally respectable.
The marriage wasn't "fake" by any means. They didn't say they were married when they legally weren't, they were actually legally married. Their reasons for doing so doesn't make the marriage any less real, in my opinion. Do I think they were "in love?" Not at all, but they loved each other as friends for sure. Not everybody marries for love, believe it or not, even today still. If there was any deception between the two of them regarding the marriage, then that's a different story, but there wasn't. They both knew what they were doing and why. It's clear to me that they did it because they were having a child together, and Michael probably wanted to make sure she was cared for and healthy during the pregnancy. It wasn't that complicated.
By the way, he was truthful about it. He said that Debbie wanted to have a child as a favor for him. That explains enough.
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Post by Liberian Girl on Aug 8, 2017 17:41:58 GMT
He was truthful, ultimately, but I still think it was odd that he married her. I know - it's not my place to know, or judge, but I'm only human and I'm allowed to wonder about this.
It always appeared to me that MJs involvement with Debbie was not a romantic one, however they could have done everything they did without a marriage. They could have had a "relationship" and had children without the facade of being in a marriage.
It's what he wanted to do, though. There must have been personal reasons to him. Maybe Michael was trying to please his mother who obviously meant the world to him.
I agree that Michael did contradict himself several times in the Bashir show. I feel Bashir did include these moments to almost mock Michael.
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Post by Angel of Light on Aug 8, 2017 19:53:30 GMT
I agree that Michael did contradict himself several times in the Bashir show. I feel Bashir did include these moments to almost mock Michael. He did. That is why I try not to analyze too much into what was said during that interview. MB was trying to manipulate the audience by addressing the same topics at different times to throw Michael off.
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Post by Snow White on Aug 9, 2017 1:31:59 GMT
Who cares if his marriage to Deborah wasn't real as his first one, it hasn't been the first arranged marriage in Hollywood and won't be the last. If he saw it at the time as an easy mean to have his children, why judging him, if becoming a father was an ardent dream of his. Some people think because they are fans have the right to pass judgement on Michael masquerading it as fair criticism. The fact that many people who could get close to him ended up just wanting something from him, it didn't allow Michael to stabish real relationships (not just the romantic kind) on many occasions in the long run like anyone else.
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Post by Liberian Girl on Aug 9, 2017 4:29:34 GMT
I don't think most here are criticizing MJ. All I was saying was that I've simply wondered why. As fans of Michael, most of us care/are interested in him as a person as well as an artist. I think if people were name calling or slagging him off for it, that's one thing. But I don't see harm in discussion or speculation. I don't want this board to be like MJJC Forum where fans can't talk in an open way. As long as it's not ever derogatory to Michael.
I still don't really understand why marriage would make it an "easy means" to being a dad. I've never heard of a surrogate marrying the person they have come to a legal agreement with to carry a child. If anything, marrying someone you're not in a romantic relationship with seems more complicated to me.
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Post by Snow White on Aug 9, 2017 4:46:48 GMT
Even when he left JWs at the age of 30, he still held some of his religious upbringing and also his mother got into his head saying to have children out of wedlock was a bad thing. LM didn't keep her promise to give Michael children, he was desperate to be a father and took DR's offer seriously and by marrying her,he could easily have the custody of the children since Deborah was handsomely paid.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Aug 9, 2017 6:13:46 GMT
Have you guys thought of it that marrying her was not for the public, so "looking phoney" is irrelevant? I don't think MJ ever really put great effort into making it look real, so I don't know why he is even called out on it. I mean he ran around with Lisa Marie while being married to Debbie, for God's sake. That should give us a clue about how much he cared about making his marriage to Debbie look real. There are many Hollywood couples who pretend to be real and they are not, they are just bearding each other. That's what I call fake.
I imagine the legal side of MJ getting custody of the kids was much easier if they were married than if they had not been. (It wasn't an anonymous surrogacy case like I imagine it was in Blanket's case. Maybe at the time of PP's birth he wasn't yet aware of that opportunity.) Not everything revolves around making an impression on the public.
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Post by MattyJam on Aug 9, 2017 7:07:12 GMT
Have you guys thought of it that marrying her was not for the public, so "looking phoney" is irrelevant? I don't think MJ ever really put great effort into making it look real, so I don't know why he is even called out on it. I mean he ran around with Lisa Marie while being married to Debbie, for God's sake. That should give us a clue about how much he cared about making his marriage to Debbie look real. Yeah, I remember MJ alternating wives onstage during the HIStory tour... one night it would be Debbie tucked away on a little wooden chair in the corner watching the show, the next show it would be Lisa.... it was hilarious! At the end of the day, no, his marriage to Debbie was far from conventional. But he had a far from conventional life, and was likely motivated to enter into a marriage to take the necessary measures he needed to secure sole custody of the children (it wasn't long after Paris was born that they divorced, which I think says it all). And also, if there is truth to the theory that Katherine disapproved of children out of wedlock, it is totally believable that he was also motivated to marry Debbie because of his mothers wishes. It's no secret that he worshipped Katherine and would do anything to keep her happy.
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