TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Jun 26, 2020 8:28:53 GMT
I've seen this a lot with the protests, some idiots go looting and the whole movement is wrong and they should stop protesting is something I've seen quite a few times. Just because some people say some stupid things does not reflect the actual movement, I think doing that is just an easy way for some people to dismiss it because it makes them uncomfortable. This is something I wish critics of the BLM movement would keep in mind instead of just going "all lives matter" or "tee hee BLM did something dumb so racism is okay". It doesn't help anyone in the long run. I've had Michael's short films on today, and I noticed MITM showed footage of old/current (for the time) protests. One of these protests showed a guy holding a sign that said "end racism". And I couldn't help but wonder: did that particular protest (which I'm curious as to where and when happened; it looked to be from the 80's) get as much criticism back then as the BLM ones get now? Did any of the protests of the past get as much backlash and venomous resistance as the ones we see today? Or were people actually more welcoming to changes then than they are now? It really makes one think, and also worry, about the state of the world and humanity. I also wonder what Michael would've thought... would he be behind BLM 100% or would he have criticisms of it while still supporting the basic message? It really makes me sad that we can't have movements to end hatred without it being fucked up by people. The strapline is interesting. You mention above the sign in the MITM video that said 'End Racism'. You can't argue with that without sounding like a total racist prick. Most racists don't even think they're racist! But with BLM, many people have taken issue as it sounds like their race is under attack or people are saying non black lives don't matter. I admit when I first heard the name, it didn't sit right and said '...but...all lives matter'. Which of course they do, but then got to understand that saying Black Lives Matter isn't saying other lives don't. The best analogy is the meme about how saying 'Save the Rainforest' isn't saying other forests shouldn't be saved also! But yes, I think the movement's name, whilst valid has given those people who always feel their dominating race is somehow at risk through immigration, mixed race marriages etc a seemingly legitimate voice. Also, of course, fucking social media gives racists a platform to raise their voice that they would not normally say out loud to strangers. Finally, a lot of the focus has been on the wrong things. The big issues of endemic, systematic racism, the words our leaders use is being dwarfed by the amount of time spent talking about statues and episodes if 30 Rock & Fawlty Towers.
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Post by jaywonder on Jun 26, 2020 8:58:20 GMT
This is something I wish critics of the BLM movement would keep in mind instead of just going "all lives matter" or "tee hee BLM did something dumb so racism is okay". It doesn't help anyone in the long run. I've had Michael's short films on today, and I noticed MITM showed footage of old/current (for the time) protests. One of these protests showed a guy holding a sign that said "end racism". And I couldn't help but wonder: did that particular protest (which I'm curious as to where and when happened; it looked to be from the 80's) get as much criticism back then as the BLM ones get now? Did any of the protests of the past get as much backlash and venomous resistance as the ones we see today? Or were people actually more welcoming to changes then than they are now? It really makes one think, and also worry, about the state of the world and humanity. I also wonder what Michael would've thought... would he be behind BLM 100% or would he have criticisms of it while still supporting the basic message? It really makes me sad that we can't have movements to end hatred without it being fucked up by people. The strapline is interesting. You mention above the sign in the MITM video that said 'End Racism'. You can't argue with that without sounding like a total racist prick. Most racists don't even think they're racist! But with BLM, many people have taken issue as it sounds like their race is under attack or people are saying non black lives don't matter. I admit when I first heard the name, it didn't sit right and said '...but...all lives matter'. Which of course they do, but then got to understand that saying Black Lives Matter isn't saying other lives don't. The best analogy is the meme about how saying 'Save the Rainforest' isn't saying other forests shouldn't be saved also! But yes, I think the movement's name, whilst valid has given those people who always feel their dominating race is somehow at risk through immigration, mixed race marriages etc a seemingly legitimate voice. Also, of course, fucking social media gives racists a platform to raise their voice that they would not normally say out loud to strangers. Finally, a lot of the focus has been on the wrong things. The big issues of endemic, systematic racism, the words our leaders use is being dwarfed by the amount of time spent talking about statues and episodes if 30 Rock & Fawlty Towers. .....and performative wokeness to avoid flack for years of BS lol
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Jun 26, 2020 9:07:32 GMT
The strapline is interesting. You mention above the sign in the MITM video that said 'End Racism'. You can't argue with that without sounding like a total racist prick. Most racists don't even think they're racist! But with BLM, many people have taken issue as it sounds like their race is under attack or people are saying non black lives don't matter. I admit when I first heard the name, it didn't sit right and said '...but...all lives matter'. Which of course they do, but then got to understand that saying Black Lives Matter isn't saying other lives don't. The best analogy is the meme about how saying 'Save the Rainforest' isn't saying other forests shouldn't be saved also! But yes, I think the movement's name, whilst valid has given those people who always feel their dominating race is somehow at risk through immigration, mixed race marriages etc a seemingly legitimate voice. Also, of course, fucking social media gives racists a platform to raise their voice that they would not normally say out loud to strangers. Finally, a lot of the focus has been on the wrong things. The big issues of endemic, systematic racism, the words our leaders use is being dwarfed by the amount of time spent talking about statues and episodes if 30 Rock & Fawlty Towers. .....and performative wokeness to avoid flack for years of BS lol Think I get what you mean - yes! Basically the only rule people should live by is 'treat people how you would want to be treated'. Including (in person & online) speak to people how you would want to be spoken to. If we could all do this, that's all we'd need.
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Post by jaywonder on Jun 26, 2020 9:10:16 GMT
That's what I'm finding upsetting online and now, here on this forum. Yes, there are many valid criticisms of the Black Lives Matter movement and its leaders (A lot of African Americans, while supportive of the core initiative, are not fully supportive of the founders and spokespeople), but painting the entire initiative as absurd and "far left propaganda" because people (some who aren't even part of the movement and want anarchy) are hijacking it for their own purposes? Many people involved in BLM and the protests were against the riots and protests. It doesn't take much effort to see many people who were trying to make an effort to make their voices heard but also do it in a peaceful manner. There were also people who weren't even from the areas popping up and destroying property so the protesters in general would be blamed. I'm speaking of the protests here in the United States. While there are many issues and discussions that can be had, it doesn't change the fact that racism and discrimination in the US is one of this country's biggest and long standing problems. I can't speak with confidence to what's going on in the UK but I've heard from people (including MJ fans) of their frustrations with discrimination over the years. While I do feel tearing down certain statues and monuments is a problem, I've LONG felt that here in the States, confederate statues and monuments should be removed. It's good to just keep an open mind and listen to everyone. I read the article and can see where Krakue comes from. As respect77 said and as I can attest, black people aren't a monolith, but it would be good for everyone, including you guys here, to at least try to see where people of color are coming from with the anger and hurt they feel.I've been called slurs, I've been mocked. I've been discriminated against. So have many others. Hell, the man this forum is dedicated to dealt with it for decades. Open dialogue is needed. Understanding is needed.
I don't think we are not hearing where people of color are coming from re. racism. I am just saying if they use BLM as a Trojan Horse to promote other issues that I disagree with then that's a turn-off for me. I don't want to "dismantle capitalism" and all the other far-leftist BS. As someone who grew up in a former Eastern Bloc country, I think this current flirting of young Westerners with communism/socialism and romanticizing it is a bad direction. If these people hijiack the BLM movement with that, you can't blame people for not fully embracing the movement (even if they otherwise would sympathize with the anti-racism goals). I can't embrace communist/far-left agendas. While I continue to support the anti-racism part. I think at the very least it is a mistake from the BLM movement to include political agendas other than race. Why? Because they only narrow down their basis with that. People who would have no problem supporting it if it is strictly about race, would take a step back if they see stuff like this "dismantle capitalism" BS. And I doubt black people largely agree with communism/socialism, so such things probably divide even them. I think they should keep the base as wide as possible, not narrow it down to politically left leaning people.
I think the thing is, a lot of race issues here in America, is deeply tangled with a lot of political agendas. That's a major problem that needs to be addressed I'm on a predominantly African American message group and they said the same you said about young millennials and Gen Zers romanticizing communism and socialism being incredibly troubling but also discussed how American capitalism isn't exactly great either and why younger people feel it has failed them and most of the country.
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Post by jaywonder on Jun 26, 2020 9:11:48 GMT
.....and performative wokeness to avoid flack for years of BS lol Think I get what you mean - yes! Basically the only rule people should live by is 'treat people how you would want to be treated'. Including (in person & online) speak to people how you would want to be spoken to. If we could all do this, that's all we'd need. That's the core of all of that is happening right now. There needs to be equality. Without that, we as a society are doomed.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jun 26, 2020 9:33:26 GMT
I don't think we are not hearing where people of color are coming from re. racism. I am just saying if they use BLM as a Trojan Horse to promote other issues that I disagree with then that's a turn-off for me. I don't want to "dismantle capitalism" and all the other far-leftist BS. As someone who grew up in a former Eastern Bloc country, I think this current flirting of young Westerners with communism/socialism and romanticizing it is a bad direction. If these people hijiack the BLM movement with that, you can't blame people for not fully embracing the movement (even if they otherwise would sympathize with the anti-racism goals). I can't embrace communist/far-left agendas. While I continue to support the anti-racism part. I think at the very least it is a mistake from the BLM movement to include political agendas other than race. Why? Because they only narrow down their basis with that. People who would have no problem supporting it if it is strictly about race, would take a step back if they see stuff like this "dismantle capitalism" BS. And I doubt black people largely agree with communism/socialism, so such things probably divide even them. I think they should keep the base as wide as possible, not narrow it down to politically left leaning people.
I think the thing is, a lot of race issues here in America, is deeply tangled with a lot of political agendas. That's a major problem that needs to be addressed I'm on a predominantly African American message group and they said the same you said about young millennials and Gen Zers romanticizing communism and socialism being incredibly troubling but also discussed how American capitalism isn't exactly great either and why younger people feel it has failed them and most of the country. Reminds me of my great-grandmother who was a poor peasant and once wisely said "Capitalism is not good for us and socialism is not good for us" ("us" meaning poor people). She saw it well that neither system is really good for the underprivileged. She saw the communists come and sweep their attic and take their last animals and crops in the name of the "common good". Poor people starved because the communists took their last everything. So yeah, there's that. It's easy to romanticize it when you don't experience it in practice. And here socialism wasn't actually that bad after the 1960s from which time there was a consolidation period, where they allowed people more freedoms and compared to other Eastern Block countries the standard of living was acceptable. Still, it's not a good system. It's not productive and the price of a higher standard of living was getting the country into massive debt.
I think socialism/communism is an utopia that may sound good on paper but it is not reconcilable with human nature, which is - whether we like it or not - selfish. That's why socialist/communist systems inevitably become tyrannical and corrupt. Of course, capitalism has many downsides as well. So maybe the best system is a capitalist system but with strong social network. Kind of like Scandinavia (it's a myth that they are socialist countries). Though that requires high taxes and how high taxes people are willing to pay is another question.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Jun 26, 2020 9:44:18 GMT
I think the thing is, a lot of race issues here in America, is deeply tangled with a lot of political agendas. That's a major problem that needs to be addressed I'm on a predominantly African American message group and they said the same you said about young millennials and Gen Zers romanticizing communism and socialism being incredibly troubling but also discussed how American capitalism isn't exactly great either and why younger people feel it has failed them and most of the country. Reminds me of my great-grandmother who was a poor peasant and once wisely said "Capitalism is not good for us and socialism is not good for us" ("us" meaning poor people). She saw it well that neither system is really good for the underprivileged. She saw the communists come and sweep their attic and take their last animals and crops in the name of the "common good". Poor people starved because the communists took their last everything. So yeah, there's that. It's easy to romanticize it when you don't experience it in practice. And here socialism wasn't actually that bad after the 1960s from which time there was a consolidation period, where they allowed people more freedoms and compared to other Eastern Block countries the standard of living was acceptable. Still, it's not a good system. It's not productive and the price of a higher standard of living was getting the country into massive debt.
I think socialism/communism is an utopia that may sound good on paper but it is not reconcilable with human nature, which is - whether we like it or not - selfish. That's why socialist/communist systems inevitably become tyrannical and corrupt. Of course, capitalism has many downsides as well. So maybe the best system is a capitalist system but with strong social network. Kind of like Scandinavia (it's a myth that they are socialist countries). Though that requires high taxes and how high taxes people are willing to pay is another question.
Yes, you're just describing the plot of 'Animal Farm' which perfectly sums up why both ideologies are flawed and the poorest will always suffer.
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Post by jaywonder on Jun 26, 2020 9:46:00 GMT
Reminds me of my great-grandmother who was a poor peasant and once wisely said "Capitalism is not good for us and socialism is not good for us" ("us" meaning poor people). She saw it well that neither system is really good for the underprivileged. She saw the communists come and sweep their attic and take their last animals and crops in the name of the "common good". Poor people starved because the communists took their last everything. So yeah, there's that. It's easy to romanticize it when you don't experience it in practice. And here socialism wasn't actually that bad after the 1960s from which time there was a consolidation period, where they allowed people more freedoms and compared to other Eastern Block countries the standard of living was acceptable. Still, it's not a good system. It's not productive and the price of a higher standard of living was getting the country into massive debt.
I think socialism/communism is an utopia that may sound good on paper but it is not reconcilable with human nature, which is - whether we like it or not - selfish. That's why socialist/communist systems inevitably become tyrannical and corrupt. Of course, capitalism has many downsides as well. So maybe the best system is a capitalist system but with strong social network. Kind of like Scandinavia (it's a myth that they are socialist countries). Though that requires high taxes and how high taxes people are willing to pay is another question.
Yes, you're just describing the plot of 'Animal Farm' which perfectly sums up why both ideologies are flawed and the poorest will always suffer. That's why there needs to be a balance. IMO, so much needs to be re-examined and re-structured
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TonyR
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Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Jun 26, 2020 9:58:32 GMT
Yes, you're just describing the plot of 'Animal Farm' which perfectly sums up why both ideologies are flawed and the poorest will always suffer. That's why there needs to be a balance. IMO, so much needs to be re-examined and re-structured The problem is, even if someone had a magic button today & reset the world. Suddenly everyone was equal. Suddenly everyone had an equal amount of money & possessions. How long would you give it before we were back to square one? 5 years, 10, 20? Human nature means people would always want more. More money & more power. And they'd find ways of getting it.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jun 26, 2020 10:23:52 GMT
And what do you guys think of this? California will vote about the repeal of Proposition 209 in November. Proposition 209 is this:
To me it looks rather shocking that they want to abolish the law that prohibits racial, ethnic, sex etc discrimination. But everywhere you look in the liberal media they celebrate it as a good thing. Why? Well, because it is packaged in a way that it needs to be abolished to make way for affirmative action. Couldn't they have simply made an exception for affirmative action in the existing law instead of abolishing it altogether? This can be used in so many ways that doesn't seem good to me. We are officially back to racial/sex/ethnic etc. discrimination being OK now?
The intention, progressives say, is to raise the rate of African American and Hispanic University students. On the other hand, it will affect Asian Americans the most. I read although they make up about 15% of California's population they make up around 39% of student population at Universities. So they are the ones at Universities in "disproportionate numbers" that will be cut back by this.
I don't know how I feel about this (or affirmative action in general).
(BTW, one of the people who introduced this change is Lorena Gonzalez, the same politician who also pushed through AB 218 which resurrected Robson and Safechuck's case.)
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Post by jaywonder on Jun 26, 2020 10:53:47 GMT
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Post by Cloudbuster on Jul 1, 2020 13:29:56 GMT
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Post by jaywonder on Jul 2, 2020 5:59:39 GMT
^No thanks
I'm sick of every time people of color or minorities in general start speaking out and going against the status quo of things here in the US, there's a bombarding of bullshit conspiracy theories of WHY
Maybe because people are still being treated like second and third class citizens in this country
Maybe because police target people of color on a regular basis
Maybe just maybe....because black men are still being lynched in this country
You can disagree with Black Lives Matter's way of going about things, I myself am critical of some aspects which is why there are OTHER foundations and organizations, but damn....racism is STILL an massive problem
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 2, 2020 12:17:20 GMT
romanticizing communism and socialism --------------
I dont know if its so much about that.rather ppl are sick of social injustice and capitalisim is a main course of it. Not so much in american but in the U.K imo its about class more than race. It doesnt matter what race you are if you are born poor and working class its one of the worst countries to live in interms of you will end up dieing in that same social class.
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Post by Cloudbuster on Jul 2, 2020 15:01:04 GMT
^No thanks I'm sick of every time people of color or minorities in general start speaking out and going against the status quo of things here in the US, there's a bombarding of bullshit conspiracy theories of WHY Maybe because people are still being treated like second and third class citizens in this country Maybe because police target people of color on a regular basis Maybe just maybe....because black men are still being lynched in this country You can disagree with Black Lives Matter's way of going about things, I myself am critical of some aspects which is why there are OTHER foundations and organizations, but damn....racism is STILL an massive problem Of course racism is still a problem, that's not up for dispute. But it's not a conspiracy theory when there's evidence of a supposed grass roots movement being funded to the tune of millions. If the end goal of those who are making the huge donations is to create more division then it seems to be working out fine for them.
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