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Post by Russg on Jun 21, 2023 14:54:10 GMT
This is classless MattyJam . How do you think MJs kids would feel if they saw this tweet? Not to mention both Janet and The Jacksons have had success in their own right and there's no denying that it all started with Joe. Disappointing to see the mod of this board exposed as a troll to the Jackson family.
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Post by respect77 on Jun 21, 2023 15:13:32 GMT
LOL at you of all people calling someone a troll.
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Post by Russg on Jun 21, 2023 15:35:48 GMT
LOL at you of all people calling someone a troll. I don't badmouth MJs family on a platform that his kids read.
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Post by MattyJam on Jun 21, 2023 15:45:29 GMT
LOL at you of all people calling someone a troll. I don't badmouth MJs family on a platform that his kids read. 1. No, but you've said some pretty vile things about Paris on this forum IIRC. Granted, she likely doesn't read this board, but it seems at odds that you would be so concerned about his kids being hurt when you have a history of bad mouthing them yourself. 2. This is the second time you've started a thread like this about me, as if you are trying to catch me out or something. If my social media tweets are so offensive, you are free to unfollow. 3. I stand by every word of the tweet.
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Post by electriceyes on Jun 21, 2023 15:49:23 GMT
I think a lot of fans would agree with Matty tbh. Joe was a piece of work and lets face it, in terms of stage parents, he won the jackpot having MJ as his kid.
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jun 21, 2023 16:35:59 GMT
How is this tweet wrong? lol.
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Post by Snow White on Jun 21, 2023 17:22:00 GMT
I don't see how Matty is wrong. I won't understand fans that give more credit to Joe of what he actually deserves and/or justifying his abuse towards Michael as discipline, being the norm children were 'disciplined " like that back in the day.
Destroying his son's self esteem is not discipline. Forcing him to work as child is not either. Joe and Katherine had no right to instill on Michael the obligation to financially support his family as a 5, 10 year old child. They were the ones who brought up to the world 9 kids they couldn't support and take care of as they should.
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Post by pg13 on Jun 21, 2023 17:26:58 GMT
Fans like to see this in terms of either/or, but the truth is that none of the Jacksons would've left Gary, Indiana if it wasn't for Joseph AND his sons. Michael was the star and would go on to become a legend, but it is reading history backwards with the Hindsight Bias if you reduce it to MJ only.
Talent by itself is not enough. Joseph did drill them into practising for hours, drove them across Indiana for talent contests and, most importantly, put his money where his mouth was. People forget he spent a lot of money on instruments without knowing for sure whether it would pay off. That was money they couldn't afford to lose.
Joseph clearly had faith in all his sons and it did take them all. He did his bit in getting them to Motown.
You could just as easily say without Berry Gordy, none of them would have left Indiana permanently and would likely have had to return with tail between legs. It takes a LOT of people helping and some luck to get there. Talent is important, but so is discipline and hard work. Joseph clearly instilled this in his boys and so did Berry Gordy later on.
I was watching the Netflix series on Arnold Schwarznegger and he spoke about the kind of discipline that was done in Austria as he was growing up. It was very, very similar to Joseph in many ways.
He made the point it was due to the trauma of war and you could certainly make a strong case for Joseph doing the same thing due to the experiences of racism he had in his formative years. Just as it was common in Austria according to Arnold, so it seems to have been equally as common within black America according to the Jacksons and others.
The other point Arnold made was that his brother, Meinhard, was much more emotionally sensitive than he was and couldn't handle it as well. Meinhard later became an alcoholic and died in a car crash under the influence. Arnold, on the other hand, went on to become highly successful.
I think we see the same thing with the Jacksons as a whole.
It's very easy to look at the past through the lens of what's acceptable and not acceptable in 2023. But what is usually forgotten is that there was widespread uncertainty and trauma in the first half or so of the 20th Century whether that's war or something as damaging as racism. Joseph's generation was still pretty close to the abolition of slavery in 1865 as the effects were still strongly felt in his childhood. His father was similar to the way he'd been with his sons later.
Intergenerational trauma is increasingly recognised.
It's too easy to criticise Arnold and Michael's respective fathers for how they treated their sons during their childhoods. Much harder to look atbthe overall time they lived in.
Arnold believes that if you keep busy, you won't have time to focus on the past which would mess you up. Michael seemed to have had a different view. Interesting to note there was only 11 years between them.
Consider Michael's words in 2001:
Michael's well known quote "In a world filled with hate" is really about his relationship with his father, looking at his father from a different perspective and ultimately its about understanding his father.
Something to reflect on....
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Post by aazzaabb on Jun 21, 2023 17:37:56 GMT
Fans like to see this in terms of either/or, but the truth is that none of the Jacksons would've left Gary, Indiana if it wasn't for Joseph AND his sons. Michael was the star and would go on to become a legend, but it is reading history backwards with the Hindsight Bias if you reduce it to MJ only. Talent by itself is not enough. Joseph did drill them into practising for hours, drove them across Indiana for talent contests and, most importantly, put his money where his mouth was. People forget he spent a lot of money on instruments without knowing for sure whether it would pay off. That was money they couldn't afford to lose. Joseph clearly had faith in all his sons and it did take them all. He did his bit in getting them to Motown. You could just as easily say without Berry Gordy, none of them would have left Indiana permanently and would likely have had to return with tail between legs. It takes a LOT of people helping and some luck to get there. Talent is important, but so is discipline and hard work. Joseph clearly instilled this in his boys and so did Berry Gordy later on. I was watching the Netflix series on Arnold Schwarznegger and he spoke about the kind of discipline that was done in Austria as he was growing up. It was very, very similar to Joseph in many ways. He made the point it was due to the trauma of war and you could certainly make a strong case for Joseph doing the same thing due to the experiences of racism he had in his formative years. Just as it was common in Austria according to Arnold, so it seems to have been equally as common within black America according to the Jacksons and others. The other point Arnold made was that his brother, Meinhard, was much more emotionally sensitive than he was and couldn't handle it as well. Meinhard later became an alcoholic and died in a car crash under the influence. Arnold, on the other hand, went on to become highly successful. I think we see the same thing with the Jacksons as a whole. It's very easy to look at the past through the lens of what's acceptable and not acceptable in 2023. But what is usually forgotten is that there was widespread uncertainty and trauma in the first half or so of the 20th Century whether that's war or something as damaging as racism. Joseph's generation was still pretty close to the abolition of slavery in 1865 as the effects were still strongly felt in his childhood. His father was similar to the way he'd been with his sons later. Intergenerational trauma is increasingly recognised. It's too easy to criticise Arnold and Michael's respective fathers for how they treated their sons during their childhoods. Much harder to look atbthe overall time they lived in. Arnold believes that if you keep busy, you won't have time to focus on the past which would mess you up. Michael seemed to have had a different view. Interesting to note there was only 11 years between them. Consider Michael's words in 2001: Michael's well known quote "In a world filled with hate" is really about his relationship with his father, looking at his father from a different perspective and ultimately its about understanding his father. Something to reflect on.... Wonderful well thought out and considered post! People seem to form a bias one way or another based on their own personal emotions without actually considering the context of the times. You sum it up wonderfully here and people really should evolve their opinions into something that considers the bigger picture and is more rooted in education and being informed. It’s too easy to say “It’s all Joe’s fault!” etc. Joe Jackson was a victim of his own life and circumstances. Im really looking forward to the Arnold doc and appreciate the analogy. Arnold seems at peace with what he went through as do several Jackson’s.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jun 21, 2023 17:45:31 GMT
I don't see how Matty is wrong. I won't understand fans that give more credit to Joe of what he actually deserves and/or justifying his abuse towards Michael as discipline, being the norm children were 'disciplined " like that back in the day. Destroying his son's self esteem is not discipline. Forcing him to work as child is not either. Joe and Katherine had no right to instill on Michael the obligation to financially support his family as a 5, 10 year old child. They were the ones who brought up to the world 9 kids they couldn't support and take care of as they should. I’m not sure it’s about justifying anything, more trying to understand and put things into a broader context and perspective that includes all of the surrounding circumstances. As PG13 has pointed out; Fans like to see this in terms of either/or which doesn’t necessarily have to be. Either side of the coin doesn’t need to be mutually exclusive.
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Post by pg13 on Jun 21, 2023 18:03:16 GMT
Fans like to see this in terms of either/or, but the truth is that none of the Jacksons would've left Gary, Indiana if it wasn't for Joseph AND his sons. Michael was the star and would go on to become a legend, but it is reading history backwards with the Hindsight Bias if you reduce it to MJ only. Talent by itself is not enough. Joseph did drill them into practising for hours, drove them across Indiana for talent contests and, most importantly, put his money where his mouth was. People forget he spent a lot of money on instruments without knowing for sure whether it would pay off. That was money they couldn't afford to lose. Joseph clearly had faith in all his sons and it did take them all. He did his bit in getting them to Motown. You could just as easily say without Berry Gordy, none of them would have left Indiana permanently and would likely have had to return with tail between legs. It takes a LOT of people helping and some luck to get there. Talent is important, but so is discipline and hard work. Joseph clearly instilled this in his boys and so did Berry Gordy later on. I was watching the Netflix series on Arnold Schwarznegger and he spoke about the kind of discipline that was done in Austria as he was growing up. It was very, very similar to Joseph in many ways. He made the point it was due to the trauma of war and you could certainly make a strong case for Joseph doing the same thing due to the experiences of racism he had in his formative years. Just as it was common in Austria according to Arnold, so it seems to have been equally as common within black America according to the Jacksons and others. The other point Arnold made was that his brother, Meinhard, was much more emotionally sensitive than he was and couldn't handle it as well. Meinhard later became an alcoholic and died in a car crash under the influence. Arnold, on the other hand, went on to become highly successful. I think we see the same thing with the Jacksons as a whole. It's very easy to look at the past through the lens of what's acceptable and not acceptable in 2023. But what is usually forgotten is that there was widespread uncertainty and trauma in the first half or so of the 20th Century whether that's war or something as damaging as racism. Joseph's generation was still pretty close to the abolition of slavery in 1865 as the effects were still strongly felt in his childhood. His father was similar to the way he'd been with his sons later. Intergenerational trauma is increasingly recognised. It's too easy to criticise Arnold and Michael's respective fathers for how they treated their sons during their childhoods. Much harder to look atbthe overall time they lived in. Arnold believes that if you keep busy, you won't have time to focus on the past which would mess you up. Michael seemed to have had a different view. Interesting to note there was only 11 years between them. Consider Michael's words in 2001: Michael's well known quote "In a world filled with hate" is really about his relationship with his father, looking at his father from a different perspective and ultimately its about understanding his father. Something to reflect on.... Wonderful well thought out and considered post! People seem to form a bias one way or another based on their own personal emotions without actually considering the context of the times. You sum it up wonderfully here and people really should evolve their opinions into something that considers the bigger picture and is more rooted in education and being informed. It’s too easy to say “It’s all Joe’s fault!” etc. Joe Jackson was a victim of his own life and circumstances. Im really looking forward to the Arnold doc and appreciate the analogy. Arnold seems at peace with what he went through as do several Jackson’s. Let me know what you think of the Arnold series - I think you'll find it very interesting! There's only three episodes.
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Post by pg13 on Jun 21, 2023 18:20:11 GMT
I don't see how Matty is wrong. I won't understand fans that give more credit to Joe of what he actually deserves and/or justifying his abuse towards Michael as discipline, being the norm children were 'disciplined " like that back in the day. Destroying his son's self esteem is not discipline. Forcing him to work as child is not either. Joe and Katherine had no right to instill on Michael the obligation to financially support his family as a 5, 10 year old child. They were the ones who brought up to the world 9 kids they couldn't support and take care of as they should. I’m not sure it’s about justifying anything, more trying to understand and put things into a broader context and perspective that includes all of the surrounding circumstances. As PG13 has pointed out; Fans like to see this in terms of either/or which doesn’t necessarily have to be. Either side of the coin doesn’t need to be mutually exclusive. Yes, I always tell people that explaining things is NOT the same thing as defending, excusing or justifying something. I agree with you that "Either side of the coin doesn’t need to be mutually exclusive". And it certainly doesn't mean we must discount Michael or Joseph's experience entirely either. Same goes for brothers. It sounded to me that Michael's own children seemed to have had a good relationship with Joseph from their words when he passed away a while back. At the time, I wondered how Michael himself would have felt and how he would have dealt with his father's passing. I think he would have been as reflective as he was in his 2001 Oxford Union address if he'd lived.
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Post by russtcb on Jun 21, 2023 19:37:30 GMT
To me, the title of this thread should read "The moderator of this forum has no respect for child abuser Joe Jackson"
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,417
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Post by TonyR on Jun 21, 2023 19:54:28 GMT
Wait till he tweets about Stranger In Moscow, then you'll see what an insufferable cunt he is.
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Post by invinciblegal on Jun 21, 2023 21:01:59 GMT
How is this tweet wrong? lol. I think it shows a lack of respect towards the Jackson family, so I see where Russ is coming from. I don't see how Matty is wrong. I won't understand fans that give more credit to Joe of what he actually deserves and/or justifying his abuse towards Michael as discipline, being the norm children were 'disciplined " like that back in the day. Destroying his son's self esteem is not discipline. Forcing him to work as child is not either. Joe and Katherine had no right to instill on Michael the obligation to financially support his family as a 5, 10 year old child. They were the ones who brought up to the world 9 kids they couldn't support and take care of as they should. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not Joe was responsible for getting them out of Gary. Yes, MJ was a prolific talent, but if that hadn't been recognised and nurtured by Joe, then there definitely wouldn't have been a Jackson 5 and who knows where or what Michael Jackson would've gone on to do with his life. Nobody is saying Joe was an angel, but he definitely deserves some credit for masterminding the family's success in those early days.
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