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Post by respect77 on Jul 2, 2023 6:14:49 GMT
This is not like the trial 2005! It's much worse. I'm not sure fans realize what this means. This whole situation is extremely stacked against MJ. Is it though? MJ would have been sent to jail for the rest of his life (possibly) with his career ending and leaving him and his legacy in the same category as Garry Glitter, not even R. Kelly. No #MJInnocent campaign would have lasted a day with a guilty conviction in 2005. LN did more damage than a negative outcome in this trial IMO, but a positive outcome will definitely mend a lot of bridges. I'd be sick at the thought of the 2 dipshits getting the payout they wanted, but I'm just going to let this one play out and see what happens. I'm definitely going to hold onto the thought that this could potentially be very positive. But I would advise anyone against getting too invested in something we cannot change or do anything about. MJJC is a car crash at the minute. The only negative comments I've read accidently on Twitter are fans responding to naysayers. Yes it's shit, but there are still some reasons to feel slightly hopeful. I didn't want to start a back and forth about feeling this way over that way, btw. But it just seems like optimistic posts are very slim here. When I said it's worse than 2005 I meant the chances of a good outcome of the trial, not necessarily impact on public opinion. I agree that in that regard a 2005 conviction would have been a lot worse than a liable verdict here would be. That too has to do with the fact that 2005 was a more fair setting (although still not completely fair, as, for example, I think the Judge allowing that "prior bad acts" part was a violation of MJ's constitutional rights and would have been a good ground for appeal for the Defense if MJ had been convicted). But there at least MJ was there, consulting with his lawyer, assisting his defense, facing his accuser and the Jury etc. And of course, with the stronger safeguards of a criminal trial that make sure that a lot less can go wrong than in a civil trial. And of course, a guilty verdict in 2005 and him going to jail would have been catastrophic for MJ and his children on a personal level as well. So yeah, from this POV it's not worse than 2005. In fact, I think already people side-eye a setting where a dead man is essentially being tried, and that for money. People saying "How are you trying a dead man? This looks unfair" was the typical general public reaction under TMZ's article. So I think people are less inclined to take this seriously as a fair procedure than the 2005 trial and that's a good thing, because it is indeed unfair. And I can see your point regarding that at least there's some possibility here for a positive outcome, unlike LN and most media articles surrounding it, which was completely one-sided. I agree with that. In a way, we have already been to the depths of Hell with LN. They are going to regurgitate the same graphic stories, but that's nothing new to the public any more, and now the Estate can also tell the part that wasn't told in LN. And that's positive of course.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Jul 2, 2023 7:16:23 GMT
Also, I don't know about you people, but does anyone know anybody outside of the forums that actually knows about LN or the names Robson or Safechuck?
I still think that unless you immerse yourself in it, the impact of LN was negligible.
I'm not saying a guilty 'verdict' would probably impact that but I reckon it won't be a devastation and it won't be a vindication. Like most things in life, the actual outcome will be somewhere in between.
I can't impact it other than say my piece when challenged so I'll just continue my fandom, listen to the music hope for the best and live my life.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 2, 2023 7:51:51 GMT
Also, I don't know about you people, but does anyone know anybody outside of the forums that actually knows about LN or the names Robson or Safechuck? I still think that unless you immerse yourself in it, the impact of LN was negligible. I'm not saying a guilty 'verdict' would probably impact that but I reckon it won't be a devastation and it won't be a vindication. Like most things in life, the actual outcome will be somewhere in between. I can't impact it other than say my piece when challenged so I'll just continue my fandom, listen to the music hope for the best and live my life. True. In my country I didn't even see this in the news. Not on any major website. Fans told me they mentioned it on some TV tabloid show, but that's all I heard. On news websites that they day brought up some new development in the Epstein case, but didn't mention this one. I think even the general public is a bit tired of the MJ bashing at this point.
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Post by Russg on Jul 3, 2023 1:33:31 GMT
Also, I don't know about you people, but does anyone know anybody outside of the forums that actually knows about LN or the names Robson or Safechuck? I still think that unless you immerse yourself in it, the impact of LN was negligible. I'm not saying a guilty 'verdict' would probably impact that but I reckon it won't be a devastation and it won't be a vindication. Like most things in life, the actual outcome will be somewhere in between. I can't impact it other than say my piece when challenged so I'll just continue my fandom, listen to the music hope for the best and live my life. True. In my country I didn't even see this in the news. Not on any major website. Fans told me they mentioned it on some TV tabloid show, but that's all I heard. On news websites that they day brought up some new development in the Epstein case, but didn't mention this one. I think even the general public is a bit tired of the MJ bashing at this point. Can you blame them? To the layman, the last 20yrs has looked something like this: - He's arrested - Found not guilty - Dies and everything's forgiven - Accused again and nobody cares - Leaving Neverland is made - MJs cancelled - Except not really I mean, if Wade has any delusion that he's going to destroy MJ, he's seriously overestimating his own self-importance. Most people don't really give a damn about the allegations anymore and just want to remember the hits and post the Thriller popcorn gif on social media. The only people left caring are the fans (still huge in numbers) and the haters (a few psychos on Twitter). The media will stoke people's interest in the trial if it goes ahead, like they did with LN, but people have a habit of tuning out and it's never as big a deal in reality as it seems to us fans, living and breathing this shit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 14:41:01 GMT
True. In my country I didn't even see this in the news. Not on any major website. Fans told me they mentioned it on some TV tabloid show, but that's all I heard. On news websites that they day brought up some new development in the Epstein case, but didn't mention this one. I think even the general public is a bit tired of the MJ bashing at this point. The only people left caring are the fans (still huge in numbers) and the haters (a few psychos on Twitter). The media will stoke people's interest in the trial if it goes ahead, like they did with LN, but people have a habit of tuning out and it's never as big a deal in reality as it seems to us fans, living and breathing this shit.
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Post by pg13 on Jul 4, 2023 7:53:15 GMT
True. In my country I didn't even see this in the news. Not on any major website. Fans told me they mentioned it on some TV tabloid show, but that's all I heard. On news websites that they day brought up some new development in the Epstein case, but didn't mention this one. I think even the general public is a bit tired of the MJ bashing at this point. Can you blame them? To the layman, the last 20yrs has looked something like this: - He's arrested - Found not guilty - Dies and everything's forgiven - Accused again and nobody cares - Leaving Neverland is made - MJs cancelled - Except not really I mean, if Wade has any delusion that he's going to destroy MJ, he's seriously overestimating his own self-importance. Most people don't really give a damn about the allegations anymore and just want to remember the hits and post the Thriller popcorn gif on social media. The only people left caring are the fans (still huge in numbers) and the haters (a few psychos on Twitter). The media will stoke people's interest in the trial if it goes ahead, like they did with LN, but people have a habit of tuning out and it's never as big a deal in reality as it seems to us fans, living and breathing this shit. Yes, MJ is still popular with the current generation of young people. Spotify streams show that, for example. I came across this post on a non-MJ forum which is also common, I think: There's a similar post to this on LSA too. Ours has MJ on the playlist too, including some from HIStory. My stepson brought his girlfriend home a few weeks ago and she said she was jealous we've seen MJ live too. Mid 20s. I think Michael was too big in life and far too big in death to be written out of music history. The dance and the music lingers on without him, for sure. When you've been the best, you can't be easily killed twice...
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Post by NatureCriminal7896 on Jul 6, 2023 7:44:34 GMT
thank you Harvey.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 8:31:30 GMT
Not really sure who this is directed at here, or what it has to do with this thread, but thank you.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 6, 2023 14:02:43 GMT
It's interesting they want to make a point to the Appeal Court, apparently about their harassment by Robson and Safechuck. It's not really necessary since the Court ruled in their favor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 14:25:50 GMT
It's interesting they want to make a point to the Appeal Court, apparently about their harassment by Robson and Safechuck. It's not really necessary since the Court ruled in their favor.That could suggest the harassment was actually worse than how it comes across on paper maybe? Very interesting. You'd assume they want to be cut and dried of the entire thing.
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Post by pg13 on Jul 9, 2023 19:49:43 GMT
All together now! 🎶
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Post by ShadowDeeps on Jul 9, 2023 21:02:37 GMT
The fact that a deceased person has to face trial for alleged crimes he couldn’t possibly posthumously deny is just a tad unfair. The burden of proof is basically twice as low (or more) in a civil trial - preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt, and hearsay and circumstantial evidence is allowed. Even though his companies are being sued and not him, without any defamatory laws to protect MJ from libel or slander, this will allow the lies to be extremely outrageous. The two cases have been in the court system for over a decade now, so even if the estate did somehow win, Finaldi, Wade, and James would just appeal again (unless I’m mistaken). It would be a never ending cycle. All this is more incentive to award them “damages” and “move on”. The pretrial coverage obviously won’t be flattering to MJ at all, and the media is intensely prejudiced against MJ as evidenced by all the disparaging articles, “podcasts”, and “films” they’ve made about him since LN (and by their promotion and coverage of LN).
However, the most concerning part is the “reasoning” the three judges gave towards reversing the dismissal. It gave eerie flashbacks to Johnny Depp’s UK civil trial. Of course, at this stage in the court proceedings, the judges take the allegations as materially factual so as to assess whether the allegations have grounds to legally be tried in court, but the judges seem to have taken that rationale a step further by disregarding previous court testimony which contradicted the conclusions they were drawing about MJ being a “danger” to “boys”, or staff “knowing” before 1993 about the allegations, or MJ’s “interest” or “special relationship” (really a lack thereof) with Wade and his family. How Blanca could even be considered a halfway reliable witness is beyond me with all the contradictions and lies in her testimonies. These Judges were pro-prosecution (EDIT: my mistake, pro-plaintiff), as they had their preconceived opinions about MJ. The only glimmer of hope is that all such allegations are not required to be taken as true if this case goes to trial (which seems more than probable), and that the estate is efficient in court.
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Post by pg13 on Jul 9, 2023 21:23:43 GMT
The fact that a deceased person has to face trial for alleged crimes he couldn’t possibly posthumously deny is just a tad unfair. The burden of proof is basically twice as low (or more) in a civil trial - preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt, and hearsay and circumstantial evidence is allowed. Even though his companies are being sued and not him, without any defamatory laws to protect MJ from libel or slander, this will allow the lies to be extremely outrageous. The two cases have been in the court system for over a decade now, so even if the estate did somehow win, Finaldi, Wade, and James would just appeal again (unless I’m mistaken). It would be a never ending cycle. All this is more incentive to award them “damages” and “move on”. The pretrial coverage obviously won’t be flattering to MJ at all, and the media is intensely prejudiced toward MJ as evidenced by all the disparaging articles, “podcasts”, and “films” they’ve made about him since LN (and by their promotion and coverage of LN). However, the most concerning part is the “reasoning” the three judges gave towards reversing the dismissal. It gave eerie flashbacks to Johnny Depp’s UK civil trial. Of course, at this stage in the court proceedings, the judges take the allegations as materially factual so as to assess whether the allegations have grounds to legally be tried in court, but the judges seem to have taken that rationale a step further by disregarding previous court testimony which contradicted the conclusions they were drawing about MJ being a “danger” to “boys”, or staff “knowing” before 1993 about the allegations, or MJ’s “interest” or “special relationship” (really a lack thereof) with Wade and his family. How Blanca could even be considered a halfway reliable witness is beyond me with all the contradictions and lies in her testimonies. These Judges were pro-prosecution, as they had their preconceived opinions about MJ. The only glimmer of hope is that all such allegations are not required to be taken as true if this case goes to trial (which seems more than probable), and that the estate is efficient in court. There isn't a prosecution in this case, so Robson is the plaintiff, so pro-plaintiff there.
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Post by amaya on Jul 9, 2023 21:38:42 GMT
I've been torn up about all of this over the last few days. I'm so, so scared for Michael. I keep trying to have hope because I know he's innocent but with burden of proof being lower and decades of media brainwashing who knows what the hell will happen. What if everything about him gets covered up and destroyed and we have no more new music, no more new concerts, no more Broadway or Cirque show, no more anything? I'd hate that so, so much. And I'd hate the smugness of the haters even more.
The lawyers for Michael's side better bring their best to the oral arguments. And if God forbid a trial does happen they need to go all out. Bring in everyone and anyone that's still alive that would be able to shut this shit down forever.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 10, 2023 7:53:45 GMT
I've been torn up about all of this over the last few days. I'm so, so scared for Michael. I keep trying to have hope because I know he's innocent but with burden of proof being lower and decades of media brainwashing who knows what the hell will happen. What if everything about him gets covered up and destroyed and we have no more new music, no more new concerts, no more Broadway or Cirque show, no more anything? I don't see this happening, even if he loses in court. If LN didn't affect the success of his music (sales, streams, theater pieces) I don't think this would either. His reputation might suffer, but interest in his art, when you look at streaming stats, sales, ticket sales to the musical etc since LN, don't seem to be affected.
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