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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 7, 2017 17:29:00 GMT
I have just seen some beautiful paintings and wanted to know who made them... and found out it was Hitler. Now that doesn't make them any less beautiful. Hitler was a horrible person. And I can still say that he was a great painter. But what I don't get is how people can be a fan of someone who has committed terrible crimes. I am always shocked that there are 'fans' who love MJ's music and still think that he was a pedophile. They say 'you can be a fan of his music and still think that he's guilty', but do they realise that they are giving him a free pass because he's talented? What if he was still living and they would support him by buying his albums etc? What about his 'victims'? Don't they feel sick when they hear songs like P.Y.T, In he Closet etc? Do they laugh when he sings about healing the world? To this day I really can't listen to Chris Brown after what he has done to Rihanna. I don't like R Kelly and believe he was guilty of having inappropriate relationships with underaged girls. But I know that there are people who can seperate the artist from his art, they basically ignore their personal lives and only listen to the music. My question is: can you? And is it easier with some artists than with others? Apologies for any grammatical errors.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 7, 2017 18:52:10 GMT
It depends on what kind of issue we are talking about.
There are artists that I don't care for as a person or they did or said something I did not like but they haven't quite crossed that line where I would stop listening to their music, watching their movies altogether.
But then there is that line that if crossed I am done with that artist.
I definitely would not and could not listen to MJ if I thought he was a pedophile. It would also be extremely bizarre to enjoy some of his songs then. To me it was actually important to do the research and find out the truth about the allegations, exactly because I could not tolerate that. I like him, but if my research had led me to believe he was guilty I sure would have moved on from him. My research, however, made me confident in his innocence.
I definitely would not hang a Hitler painting on my wall, no matter how beautiful it was. I wouldn't buy Charles Manson's music. I wouldn't buy Jerry Sandusky memorabilia. Etc.
I also boycott some artists who have been vile to MJ. Eg. I boycott Chris Rock movies. I boycott KISS because of Gene Simmons' comments. I can sometimes give a pass or the benefit of doubt there, though. Like there was a story about George Michael supposedly saying something vile to someone about MJ privately - but because it was said in private and he did not meant it for public consumption it is not the same to me as when Gene Simmons is bashing MJ constantly on Twitter or as when Chris Rock puts a hateful MJ "joke" in each one of his movies and standup comedies for decades. Those people are beyond obsessed in their MJ hate and I won't tolerate that. (And that George Michael story may not even be true at all, after all as it comes from a guy who he supposedly picked up on an Internet gay forum or something. But even IF it was true - it was a stupid, ignorant opinion but at least he had the sense to keep it private and not publicly spout nonsense about MJ. So that's not quite the level as Simmons or Rock to me.)
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 7, 2017 20:17:09 GMT
Irgh, i absolutely hate Chris Rock. He was in a show and was asked how it was working with kids and he said he loved children but not in the Michael Jackson way. And people who sat next to him looked very irritated because it came out of nowhere. He's just an obsessed Prince fan who likes to put down MJ. I find it sad though that there are people who I really respected (Robin Williams) and then I found out what comments they have made about MJ and it has put me off. One of my favourite movies is Dead Poets society, now I don't feel the same joy while watching it. I also don't like Oprah at all. I think she is two-faced and a hypocrite. But at the same time I have a lot of respect for people who have defended MJ and I am always glad when there is another artist I like who has said positive things about him.
I have read the George Michael story. It might be true but I think I can't blame all the people who have been manipulated by the media. At least he aknowledged MJ's genius, many artists acted like they weren't even inspired by him at all.
I do think it's easier if you don't actually have to see or hear the artist. I think it might be different to watch a Woody Allen movie and ignore his controversies than listening to a MJ song.
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Post by Liberian Girl on Aug 7, 2017 20:41:03 GMT
I have just seen some beautiful paintings and wanted to know who made them... and found out it was Hitler. Now that doesn't make them any less beautiful. Hitler was a horrible person. And I can still say that he was a great painter. But what I don't get is how people can be a fan of someone who has committed terrible crimes. This is a really interesting topic. I've often wondered the same thing. I know 100% that if Michael Jackson was a pedophile, I could not be a fan. More so with Michael than any artist, because if it turned out to be true, his entire career would be a lie... it'd be a lie because he built his whole career foundation upon the notion of healing the world, taking care of children, following Jesus's example etc. How could I take his art seriously when he would have acted polar opposite to that which he used his music to preach about? Having said all of this, I sincerely believe Michael to be 100% innocent and so thankfully, will never worry about this. I do want to ask Dancingmjsdream this, though: if you can love Hitler's work despite the many people who died because of him, would you not then also be able to do the same for Michael? The two are comparable...both would be horrible criminals who could produce fine art. I'm just asking out of curiosity
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Post by MattyJam on Aug 7, 2017 21:07:04 GMT
Truth be told, I am a little resentful of MJ's name even being entered into this discussion (that's not a pop at you dancingmjsdream, as I have seen this topic raised numerous times in the past in relation to MJ). I think the reason it stings hearing MJ's name bought up in this kind of conversation is because I truly believe he was a very special, kind hearted and giving man, somebody who I greatly admire outside of all of his artistic and musical accomplishments.
Taking Michael's name out of the equation, I do think it's hard to separate the art from the artist. The best art feels as if it comes from the depths of the artists soul. When a singer/songwriter performs something where you feel it on an almost spiritual or primal level, you know it is coming from a place of sincerity, which is why artist-fan relationships can be so powerful and is why many fans feel as if they know a certain artist personally when infact, they've never met the artist.
Can bad people create great art? Yes, I believe they can. I like plenty of great music acts where I've read up on their lives, the way they treated their partners, fans or band members, and they sound like horrid people to know in real life (Prince is an example of this, as much as I love him). But can someone fake sincerity and emotion in their art so convincingly that they are able to connect with their audience on a deeply profound level, and essentially con their audience into believing something which isn't actually real? I don't think that's so easy.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 8, 2017 6:21:04 GMT
I know 100% that if Michael Jackson was a pedophile, I could not be a fan. More so with Michael than any artist, because if it turned out to be true, his entire career would be a lie... it'd be a lie because he built his whole career foundation upon the notion of healing the world, taking care of children, following Jesus's example etc. How could I take his art seriously when he would have acted polar opposite to that which he used his music to preach about? I agree with this very much. So basically whether you can overlook things in an artist's personal life also depends on how much their art is connected to their person (and how genuine it is) and also on what kind of image and personality they have. People who already have a wild, "bad boy" image will be more easily given a pass for bad behavior. In the case of a singer-songwriter like MJ is his music is inherently connected to his soul. I think he was a very honest artist. When I listen to a song like Do You Know Where Your Children Are, I know it is coming from his soul and he is expressing his own thoughts about a certain subject. It would be difficult to listen to and like such songs if I thought they were hypocritical. On the other hand, I have to say I have watched Roman Polanski movies - eg. The Pianist - and while watching it the allegations against him (which in his case are more than just allegations) didn't cross my mind. It is a different kind of art where the person of the director is maybe less intimately connected to the art than songs are connected to a singer-songrwriter. So in that case it makes it easier to seperate artist and art perhaps. I don't know what to think about the allegations against Woody Allen. I don't want to judge him based on an allegation that was never proven. I think that's only fair considering we experienced first hand with MJ regarding unfair judgements by people. I have to say his Take The Money and Run movie is one of my all time favourites and as of now I treat him as "innocent until proven guilty". If he was proven to be guilty my stance may change, but again, a movie isn't quite the same thing in terms of art-artist intimacy as a song that was written by the artist and the artist, so I don't know if I would still be able to watch Take The Money and Run. This actually brings me to an article that I have read not long ago. It was about the groupies of the '70s and how many rock stars at the time slept with 13-14 year old girls. Here is the article www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/article/25854/1/the-70s-groupies-who-broke-the-rules-of-style-sexualityThe article is almost in a celebratory tone, as if it was such a cool lifestyle. These rock stars are celebrated and widely respected. Meanwhile MJ has been witchhunted for over two decades for something he did NOT even do. I find the double standards interesting. On one hand, surely it is because he was accused of molesting boys and as hypocritical as it is society still treats the sexual abuse of girls differently. But I think another reason is that for these rock stars the bad boy image is considered almost cool. MJ wrote songs against this phenomenon and against the sexualization of children: Hollywood Tonight, Do You Know Where Your Children Are. Meanwhile some of these "respected" rock stars wrote songs openly sexualizing underage girls and they aren't marginalized for that. (And yes, that includes Gene Simmons, so I find him a huge hypocrite.) Truth be told, I am a little resentful of MJ's name even being entered into this discussion (that's not a pop at you dancingmjsdream, as I have seen this topic raised numerous times in the past in relation to MJ). I think the reason it stings hearing MJ's name bought up in this kind of conversation is because I truly believe he was a very special, kind hearted and giving man, somebody who I greatly admire outside of all of his artistic and musical accomplishments. I agree with this wholeheartedly. MJ doesn't even deserve to be in these "seperating the artist and the art" conversations because there is no need to seperate him from anything. He was such a good person with such a golden heart and so much love in him, so when people talk about seperating his person from anything it suggests they believe the lies about him and that's so undeserved and hurtful. In reality his wonderful person only adds to his art and legacy. Not only was he an extraordinary artist but also an extraordinary, beautiful person of whom as a fan I can only be proud of.
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Post by Russg on Aug 8, 2017 7:09:56 GMT
I think it depends on how you view art and how autobiographical a persons art is.
What I mean by that is, if you view art as an extension of a persons core being - intrinsically tied to their soul - then I would imagine it could be a challenge listening to the music of someone who has been proven to have committed a terrible crime. But if we're talking about someone like Justin Bieber for example, who seems to across as a fairly unlikeable person, at the risk of sounding like a music snob, I don't really believe his music has the depth required for this to be a problem. In terms of music, there is a big difference between artists who perform catchy pop tunes and singer/songwriters who use their work to bare their soul. MJ managed to do both in his work, but most of todays modern crop of popstars only really deliver the former. Therefore, I could imagine it's not really that hard to think that Bieber's a douche while simultaneously jamming to What Do You Mean.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 8, 2017 7:24:15 GMT
Liberian Girl I think I might be able to like or even love Hitler's art but I wouldn't buy it or want to have it on my wall I think. I could objectively say that he could paint really well. It would be a bit easier though because his art doesn't seem to be connected with his soul. Unlike MJ, he didn't try to make the world a better place through his art. So being a fan of someone like MJ who has tried his whole life to heal the world and thinking he was guilty is just not possible for me. You would have to ignore more than half of his work and the man himself.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Aug 8, 2017 7:33:06 GMT
I just wanted to say: in no way do I think that MJ deserves to be in this discussion, to me the man can't be seperated from his art,he was a beautiful person inside and out and it makes me angry how many people have fallen for the media's and accuser's BS.
But I oberserved that MJ seems to be the best example for many people. They ignore his private life and only listen to his music. Because he was so talented that nothing else matters. And this is something I will never understand and something I could never do.
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Post by .♦♛Pink Diamond Princess♛♦. on Aug 9, 2017 13:04:27 GMT
For the most part no I cannot.
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