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Post by respect77 on Jun 16, 2019 16:14:00 GMT
You just said it in this post: #Metoo already brought that about. Not LN. I would also dispute MJ was really powerful. And epecially not as a dead man unable to defend himself. Nothing brave about accusing him under the circumstances of this case. If anything LN leaves an extremely bad taste behind and brings out everything that is wrong with #metoo. Sure, but #MeToo is not the be-all end-all. There are still people who struggle. Another way it inspires change is that it's focusing on male-on-male sexual assault, which I think I've read before there's an additional stigma to that or something? All of these need to be looked at from the perception of someone who believes in the documentary. You and I both know the whole backstory and know that what Robson or Safechuck are doing is anything but brave... but to those who don't know any better and believe them? Yeah they are very much seen as brave.
And as for the power thing, he was if he wanted to be. We've all seen the crazy martyr-like effects he has on people by simply being remotely in their presence, the millions of fans who would go to the end of the earth to defend him, his extraordinary wealth and the fact that his music has had an astronomical impact on pop culture that you simply cannot 'cancel' him. All of this does give him power. Yes, he absolutely had powerful forces against him that I know you're thinking of (racism, heavy media bias, him now being dead, probably some others that I can't think of right now) which complicates the matter and make it less straight forward, but I think if he really did want to molest children, he could've done it and possibly get away with it. 'Played the game', engaged in many shady techniques to keep it under wraps too and intimidate his victims into keeping their mouths shut. Only thing with MJ is that he never had to engage in any of these techniques because he was innocent and had nothing to hide. Michael was very open and transparent about clearing his name.
Going back to seeing it from the perspective of someone who believes in the documentary, even if you personally want to dispute how powerful Michael really is, the people who believe in the accusations are absolutely going to see Michael Jackson as a powerful figure. A lot of people interpret the Chandler settlement as an example of his power because he gave the Chandlers tens of millions of dollars to make them drop the case and effectively get himself off scot-free, something most people could not do if accused of the same crimes. We might know this isn't the case, but they don't.
To be really powerful you actually have to actively look for it. Build powerful networks around you, allies in the media, in law enforcement, economy, politics. Look into the stories of Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein and you will see what real power is. Just because someone is wealthy and famous it does not automatically mean power. I don't think MJ actually was powerful. Just look at how the media treated him all those years. If he truly had been powerful that would not have had happened.
IMO his wealth and fame coupled with his naivety and eccentricity made him more vulnerable than powerful. Target for false accusers, a target for opportunists, target for overzealous prosecutors and journalists to all make their names at his expense. The way he was treated all those years echoes anything but power - that he had a huge fan base doesn't really change that:
His fans defend him on social media, but other than that what support do yo really see for him from the establishment? 99% of the mainstream media is not even willing to publish any view opposing LN. It is not that they have to take MJ's side, but not even a balance or fairness is there. They will interview Adrian McManus, but Brandi Jackson can't get an interview. The US media still acts like nothing even exists in opposition to LN. Even the Estate's PPT that they sent to several publications did not even get published. I know of several authors who wanted to get articles published criticizing LN and they simply were not allowed to publish that. One author's article simply got deleted after being published and the author still wasn't given a reason why. So where is the power in all that? (Not to mention it also raises questions about freedom of speech and the freedom of the press.)
In this case power is on HBO's side who obviously put a huge, orchestrated marketing campaign behind this. Money is power indeed, but only if you put your money behind your cause. MJ was rich but he didn't use that money to build media alliances and a network of power around him, like some other players do.
And if you see "power" in MJ's fandom, what about the power of the Metoo movement that Robson and Safechuck can safely ride the waves of? That doesn't even allow hard ball questions to be asked? That's the real power here!
And I can only feel sorry for any male victim who looks up to these frauds as an inspiration.
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Post by HIStoric on Jun 16, 2019 17:23:03 GMT
That’s all well and good friend, but unfortunately a lot of people are not going to see it that way, or even be aware of some of those circumstances. They’re still going to see Michael Jackson as a powerful figure for the reasons I described, and by having these two ‘brave men’ finally speak out against him *that* is how it’s going to be inspiring to them. It might not be the reality of the situation, but again, it all comes down to their perception of the film and the accusations. And if you see "power" in MJ's fandom, what about the power of the Metoo movement that Robson and Safechuck can safely ride the waves of? That doesn't even allow hard ball questions to be asked? That's the real power here! A key point of #MeToo is taking the power away from the abusers and putting it back in the hands of the victims. So yes there is a power in the #MeToo movement, but one people see as rightly deserved after years of victims being silenced or afraid to speak out or what have you. |
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Post by respect77 on Jun 16, 2019 17:36:41 GMT
The license to accuse and be immediately believed without having to prove anything indeed gives people power. But it is needless to say that such a power doesn't only attract real victims, but also opportunists, sociopaths and narcissists. The media will sooner or later have to deal with that reality regarding #MeToo.
As for perception, that's where the media's responsibility lies. How much is this film a rightful inspiration for anyone when it is based on lies? For example, they can make people believe that MJ "got away" in 2005 or in 1993 because of his power, but it is a lie. And I suspect that many journalists know it is a lie too. Yet they are feeding into false narratives. Or if they don't know it is a lie then they are lazy and incompetent as journalists. I guess anything can be made look "inspiring" when a completely false narrative is built up around it. And I don't just mean the film itself, but also the media campaign surrounding it.
People are living in a lie if they think MJ's supposed power is anything compared to the power they are being manipulated with:
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jun 16, 2019 20:29:34 GMT
That’s all well and good friend, but unfortunately a lot of people are not going to see it that way, or even be aware of some of those circumstances. They’re still going to see Michael Jackson as a powerful figure for the reasons I described, and by having these two ‘brave men’ finally speak out against him *that* is how it’s going to be inspiring to them. It might not be the reality of the situation, but again, it all comes down to their perception of the film and the accusations. And if you see "power" in MJ's fandom, what about the power of the Metoo movement that Robson and Safechuck can safely ride the waves of? That doesn't even allow hard ball questions to be asked? That's the real power here! A key point of #MeToo is taking the power away from the abusers and putting it back in the hands of the victims. So yes there is a power in the #MeToo movement, but one people see as rightly deserved after years of victims being silenced or afraid to speak out or what have you. I'm kinda struggling to see what you're trying to argue here tbh. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jun 16, 2019 23:59:54 GMT
I'm kinda struggling to see what you're trying to argue here tbh. So we all know that Leaving Neverland is complete bullshit, right? Even if someone here is a victim of child sexual abuse themselves, it's not going to convince any of them to speak up against their abuser because we know these two men are lying. But a lot of people don't. Clearly, a lot of people have been swayed by Leaving Neverland into believing Michael Jackson was a child sexual abuser, and many more are now incredibly suspicious of MJ. My argument is that if enough people believe them, and perceive the film as completely factual, it could legitimately inspire change to have genuine victims come out and speak out about their abusers. So Respect77 gives a lot of reasons as to why this influence is falsely guided, why Michael Jackson actually wasn't as powerful as he's made out to be, and she raises a handful of good points. The only issue, however, is that a lot of these details are not widely known, or perceived in the same way by those less educated on the subject (aka the general public). So if we're going to discuss the influence the film has in general, what good is that information if no-one knows it y'know?
If you're struggling to see what I'm arguing in regards to 'power', let me know and I'll write up about that too  |
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Post by Snow White on Jun 17, 2019 0:03:58 GMT
Let's wait and see. I read it comes at the end of the month. I'm still skeptical.
Sorry if my post is off, I posted on the wrong thread.
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jun 17, 2019 12:11:37 GMT
I try not to get down about this but it makes me sad that this is just the way things are now. His reputation with the general public was being rebuilt and now it has been shattered again and will probably never be the same.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Jun 17, 2019 14:43:26 GMT
I try not to get down about this but it makes me sad that this is just the way things are now. His reputation with the general public was being rebuilt and now it has been shattered again and will probably never be the same. Yeah, I'm in a bit of a low mood about it all again tbh. |
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Post by amaya on Jun 18, 2019 5:47:04 GMT
I try not to get down about this but it makes me sad that this is just the way things are now. His reputation with the general public was being rebuilt and now it has been shattered again and will probably never be the same. I hope those pieces of shit are proud of themselves. They really have ruined everything. |
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jun 18, 2019 18:22:33 GMT
Hopefully taj's doc will be what I'm hoping it will be. It could make a big difference if done correctly. Although I'm not gonna lie I'm a bit concerned about how it's going to turn out.
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Post by pg13 on Jun 24, 2019 14:30:53 GMT
That’s all well and good friend, but unfortunately a lot of people are not going to see it that way, or even be aware of some of those circumstances. They’re still going to see Michael Jackson as a powerful figure for the reasons I described, and by having these two ‘brave men’ finally speak out against him *that* is how it’s going to be inspiring to them. It might not be the reality of the situation, but again, it all comes down to their perception of the film and the accusations. A key point of #MeToo is taking the power away from the abusers and putting it back in the hands of the victims. So yes there is a power in the #MeToo movement, but one people see as rightly deserved after years of victims being silenced or afraid to speak out or what have you. I'm kinda struggling to see what you're trying to argue here tbh. He's talking about the emotional power of propaganda. Which version of ANY story gains more traction and believers than the other side? Simple - stories whose narrative is one where one side is portrayed as a victim. Look to politics for examples of this. Why do so many people believe Mandela was a "peacemaker" as opposed to a terrorist? Why do so many Irish Americans believe and support PIRA? Again, the emotional punch of their respective narratives is what sways people into their side. Even if that narrative is a load of bollocks. But, as Historic was arguing, most people will not delve too deeply into the subject matter. They usually stick with their emotional first impressions and rarely change from it. That's what's happened in relation to Michael Jackson and LN. |
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jun 25, 2019 4:46:04 GMT
Already starting to see all the articles appearing in my news feed. Probably gonna just not look at it today.
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Yaza
Wondering Who
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Post by Yaza on Jul 21, 2019 20:16:22 GMT
Reading this thread was so helpful. Thank you all.
This year has not been easy for us fans, I'm glad the worst of it's all over <3
The strongest fanbase ever.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 19:23:50 GMT
Reading this thread was so helpful. Thank you all. This year has not been easy for us fans, I'm glad the worst of it's all over <3 The strongest fanbase ever. Glad to hear! |
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Aug 17, 2019 17:25:36 GMT
I have had a few people at parties start saying mj is a pedo recently and then start listing off the typical bullshit that proves absolutely nothing. By the time this happens I'm usually already drunk and am not really sure what I'm supposed to say. I guess it's just something that I'll need to get used to.
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