|
Post by MattyJam on May 27, 2019 17:18:46 GMT
I used to be staunchly Labour (left-wing), but I have slowly become more disillusioned with the party. I would probably vote Green in the next general election as I like their stance on animal rights. Same. In fact in the Euro elections last week I voted Green for first time. I really like Caroline Lucas also & agree with her on Brexit. The thing with the Greens is to be convinced that they're not a one policy party, as their name suggests. If everyone who agreed with the Green parties policies actually voted for them, they'd probably get in power. I hate all this "wasted vote" talk. I just wish for once the people would put their money where their mouth is and actually vote for the party they have the most faith in. Decade upon decade of tactical voting is why we've had a culture of two party politics for the last century. Voting Labour to keep the Tory's out of power etc. We've all been guilty of it in the past, but after the whole mess of Brexit, I (probably naively) am hoping we are heading towards a change in British politics.
|
|
TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
|
Post by TonyR on May 27, 2019 17:23:35 GMT
Same. In fact in the Euro elections last week I voted Green for first time. I really like Caroline Lucas also & agree with her on Brexit. The thing with the Greens is to be convinced that they're not a one policy party, as their name suggests. If everyone who agreed with the Green parties policies actually voted for them, they'd probably get in power. I hate all this "wasted vote" talk. I just wish for once the people would put their money where their mouth is and actually vote for the party they have the most faith in. Decade upon decade of tactical voting is why we've had a culture of two party politics for the last century. Voting Labour to keep the Tory's out of power etc. We've all been guilty of it in the past, but after the whole mess of Brexit, I (probably naively) am hoping we are heading towards a change in British politics. Yes I get that. The wasted vote argument is crazy. Although ideally people would all get behind the same party rather than spread out amongst a few like last night.
|
|
|
Post by pg13 on May 28, 2019 0:50:45 GMT
The Greens are not the same across the UK.
In Scotland, the Greens are separatists who cannot get an MSP elected as barely anyone votes for them. They get in via the list system then make demands on the SNP who they prop up.
Wouldn't vote for Harvie the Mango at all since I'm not a Separatist.
Scottish Greens might as well be a separate party from the one in England and Wales as well as Northern Ireland where they definitely do not register either.
Greens seem to be more popular in England, notably around Brighton.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 4:11:44 GMT
Interesting how racist anti Immigration, anti brown people and anti Islam parties swept the polls, with a neo Nazi group winning in Italy, Marine le Pen in France and Farage and his neo nazi cretins in the UK.
The white man is asserting his true colours again.
How long until I have to call you all "Massa" and "Baas" again!
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on May 28, 2019 7:20:39 GMT
Here in Hungary populist Viktor Orbán won as expected, but this was actually a loss for him in many ways. They only got 13 of the 17 seats they expected which means that the European People's Party won't need him any more and they will probably kick him and his party out of the EPP now. So he can officially join his buddies on the far right and keep barking from the sidelines without any weight.
Yeah, altogether there's a surge of right wing populism but at the same time overall they have no weight in the EU parliament. EPP (conservatives) are the biggest party, followed by the socialists, liberals and greens. Altogether they have a comfortable advantage over right wing populists.
|
|
|
Post by HIStoric on Jun 1, 2019 4:16:08 GMT
I would say liberal. As for how much, definitely not far. I'm closer to the centre but I tend to have pretty liberal ideas.
I think I remember taking a poll around the time of the 2016 elections, and I matched with Bernie/Hillary on like 80-85% of issues, and Donald Trump on like 20%? Something to that effect. Don't remember exactly what I matched with Trump on anymore though.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jun 1, 2019 6:08:03 GMT
I did two or three of those online tests and it consistently gave me liberal. So I guess that's what it is after all.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 12, 2019 13:11:55 GMT
I did two or three of those online tests and it consistently gave me liberal. So I guess that's what it is after all.
While every time I take an online poll on where I stand in my political views it gives me "liberal democrat", I have started to become almost disgusted with the political forces that currently call themselves that. Thy hypocrisy, the increasing lunacy on the so called "liberal" side scares me off. The complete disability to debate, instead labeling others with a different opinion (sexist, homophobe, racist, victim shamer etc.). The totalitarian nature of the liberal media where dissenting opinions aren't even allowed to be published any more. This is not liberalism!
So I did a little bit of YT watching in the past days and I found that this is something that I would characterize my position. Very well put IMO:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 20:50:40 GMT
I did two or three of those online tests and it consistently gave me liberal. So I guess that's what it is after all.
While every time I take an online poll on where I stand in my political views it gives me "liberal democrat", I have started to become almost disgusted with the political forces that currently call themselves that. Thy hypocrisy, the increasing lunacy on the so called "liberal" side scares me off. The complete disability to debate, instead labeling others with a different opinion (sexist, homophobe, racist, victim shamer etc.). The totalitarian nature of the liberal media where dissenting opinions aren't even allowed to be published any more. This is not liberalism!
So I did a little bit of YT watching in the past days and I found that this is something that I would characterize my position. Very well put IMO:
As a liberal, I have been feeling completely disillusioned over the last 6 months. As someone who has avoided social media until Leaving Neverland - I was totally ignorant to just how regressive the left has become. I have observed how the liberal elite (media & so-called victim advocate groups like MeToo - to name a couple) have completely silenced debate and opposing views. It actually appears that suspending critical thinking is the new cool where only 'group thought' is allowed. I have struggled to articulate where I stand politically in recent months however I have appreciated watching these two videos you posted with Dave Rubin - it has helped me sort out my thoughts a little. “Defending my liberal principles, has become a conservative position” – This. *Disclaimer - first time posting in a forum - let's hope I did it correctly!
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 12, 2019 21:20:20 GMT
“Defending my liberal principles, has become a conservative position” What a fantastic quote and it really resonates with my own feelings lately! Great first post Vex - welcome to the board! :-)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 22:07:40 GMT
“Defending my liberal principles, has become a conservative position” What a fantastic quote and it really resonates with my own feelings lately! Great first post Vex - welcome to the board! :-) I had a conversation a couple of days ago with a colleague who is an ardent 'liberal' - towards the end of the conversation they asked me if I was a Tory. Hence - this quote by Rubin really stood out for me. Thank you - I need to figure out what all the buttons do (tech phobe) but i'll get there. It just means you may seem some whack posts from me in the future via my trial and error approach. LOL.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 13, 2019 6:43:26 GMT
The Rubin Report YouTube channel is really great. Great interviews there, very refreshing to watch people discussing different ideas in a civil way, unlike what is going on in the "liberal" (really regressive left) side.
This interview with the head of the Veritas Project echoed many things that we, as MJ fans, faced regarding the tactics of of the mainstream media. The Veritas Project aims to expose BigTech political bias via undercover reports and whistle-blowers. I know they are pretty controversial, they have been accused by the mainstream media of selective editing etc. but I am not sure if that is substantiated or just the usual discrediting tactics of the mainstream media at anyone challenging their power. Nevertheless, what O'Keefe says here about the media is absolutely true.
The way I see LN fit into this is that MeToo is very much attached to the leftist ideology as well. It has strong ties with modern "feminism" (I use that as much in quotation marks as "liberal" to these leftist monster ideology) and "just believe the accuser" is a dogma they want to shove down everyone's throat. (And maybe there is also a more nefarious agenda as well, on the longer term, which would lead to normalizing pedophilia. Which is also something that have been pushed by some on the left for decades.)
That's why you haven't seen anyone in the US mainstream media, not one person, even play devil's advocate with the pushed narrative of LN. Nada, zero. They jumped right to the premise of it all being true. And it is not like there weren't differing opinions, they were just not allowed to get published. Questioning LN is apparently career suicide these days. Because then you are called a "victim shamer" etc. Just the usual tactics of pressuring everyone to sign up to the intended narrative.
I haven't seen one mainstream journalist being interested in the court case (or even knowing ANYTHING about it). When they faked interest by interviewing fans that was just to push a certain narrative about them (they are crazy and rabid) and when that's not what they got from the interview but actual arguments, they just refused to publish it.
So I perfectly agree with the notion that the media these days is not into truth, it is not creating narratives. They tried to use the LN narrative to further support certain leftist dogma (MeToo, unquestionably accepting allegations of sexual abuse instead of rationally discussing them etc.).
So these things are absolutely connected in my mind.
I also can see that these are the same tactics they do to a lot of conservative thinkers, as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2019 0:39:28 GMT
I watched a talk by Bret Weinstein who discusses the regressive left and 'social justice movements'. Although this talk is predominantly in the context of university and colleges - he also covers how narratives fuel the press and how social justice movements impact our legal system. From the talk: Bret is talking from his own personal experience regarding Evergreen State College but of course, it applies to Leaving Neverland and almost any issue imaginable. This quote speaks to what respect77 has expressed concern over many times: If Wade Robson and James Safechuck are successfully able to revive their lawsuits upon the passing of the AB218 Bill and their cases did indeed go to trial - how would a jury in their civil case be impacted by Leaving Neverland, in this MeToo era no less? Given the burden of proof is much lower in a civil trial, along with the "believe all survivors" narrative running through the press - I would say Leaving Neverland definitely has the potential to impact a jury. And they say it's not about money. Smh. This talk covers so many more interesting themes (allyship, linquistic traps etc) - it is a great analysis of the problems with the left and articulates why I feel so politically disillusioned right now. However - what was great was that towards the end of the talk, Bret emphasises the accuracy of the two axis political model and how the majority of people, both left and right, both value liberty and reject authoritarianism. This enabled me to slightly re-frame how I feel about politics and has made me feel (a little) more optimistic.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 14, 2019 6:44:23 GMT
^ I will watch, thank you. I agree with you about LN and I think one of the purpose was to put this kind of pressure on a jury if their case goes to trial. Remember that when they started shooting it (early 2017) their case hasn't been thrown out yet. And now they have this new bill that could see their lawsuits be revived - so it still would serve this purpose for them (plus the purpose of "victim" fishing). Unfortunately if this goes to trial I can't see a Jury independent enough from the massive, one-sided media brainwash that surrounded LN, the MeToo zeitgeist that even makes celebrities who had nothing but praise for MJ only months ago, shy away from supporting him. Yes, the media pressure was big in 2005 as well and still we had a smart and potent jury withstanding that, but 2005 was by far not as bad in terms of media pressure as it is now (plus this would be a civil trial, not a criminal). It was one-sided and I absolutely agree with Charles Thomson's article on the 2005 media coverage, but if that was bad, 2019 showed that it can be much worse. At least in 2005 you had the odd pundit or legal analyst talking sense. In 2019 there was just ZERO balance in the media. Not even an attempt at it. Articles submitted with different opinions were simply rejected.
And this is where we are getting back at the regressive left. I have been watching these videos on Rubin Report in the past few days and it is amazing to me how it all has the same modus operandi with everyone and everything they deem an opponent or enemy. And yes, it is about narratives, not the truth any more. Basically I have seen media people declare how the truth about the allegations in LN isn't even important. It is the narrative it tells it is.
Case in point:
Or Oprah herself:
“I know people all over the world are going to be in an uproar and debating whether or not Michael Jackson did these things and whether these two men are lying or not lying. But for me, this moment transcends Michael Jackson. It is much bigger than any one person. This is a moment in time that allows us to see this societal corruption. It’s like a scourge on humanity. . . If it gets you, our audience, to see how it happens, then some good would have come of it.”
It's like the truth doesn't even matter. It only matters it can be used to support the leftist "believe the accuser" dogma. I watched this yesterday and it was very interesting too. Towards the end (50:40) they talk about MeToo and also that actually some people, including law students, are now talking about replacing the presumption of innocence with a presumption of guilt now in court. It is absolutely scary. These so called "progressives" are going out of control crazy now.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 14, 2019 9:18:10 GMT
I just watched Bret Weinstein's lecture. Absolutely spot on! And what he said at the end is the solution to where I stand on the political spectrum, I think. It is not about left vs. right, it is about libertarians vs. authoritarians. That's it! And it is even more clear from where I am (Hungary), because here we have a right wing government but they are doing the exact same tricks on a local level as the left does on a global: most of the media here is strongly under their control, no dissenting opinions allowed in their media, no pluralism and diversity of opinion, jobs depending on how you relate to the party line, university professors being employed or fired based on how they relate to the favored dogma, insane subjects being taught at universities as if they are science, justice system hijacked etc.
Here in Hungary they will push some stupid nationalist or religious pseudo-science to universities in the name of right wing dogma, while in Canada they are pushing "indigenous science" (ie. tradition and superstition) vs. "European science" (ie. real science) or untested gender theories in the name of left wing dogma. Same insanity, only in different color.
My feeling all this time was that it is left wing extremism vs. right wing extremism and we in the middle have nowhere to go. But it really is libertarians vs. authoritarians. The problem is anywhere you look, the two alternative seems to be left or right wing authoritarianism. More people need to realize what is going on. Still a lot of well meaning people think there is one big enemy: right wing totalitarianism and we have to fight it by voting for "liberal" parties, not realizing that they are only liberal in name now. They really are left wing authoritarians.
The story about how inquiry and science is their enemy was also very interesting. While I did not dig deep in these modern leftist social sciences but on the surface from some of what I have read they do seem questionable to me sometimes. Like gender studies on the left in a lot of ways to me seems like theology on the right. LOL. You can sell it as science, but there are a lot of unscientific things in them IMO. And they also end up in contradictions often. In one of these videos someone pointed out the contradiction that they fired this young man for Google for stating there are biological differences in men and women - physical obviously, but also the way their brain and psyché works (which IMO is stating the obvious). Meanwhile the same "progressive" people will support trans people who can say things like "I was born in a man's body with a female brain". How come, if there is no difference between a male and a female brain?
Here is that conversation with that man who was fired from Google. Another insane story about this left wing authoritarian dogma.
Another thing I observed is that these modern left wing authoritarians are basically doing the same as what communists used to do (which shouldn't be a surprise). There are favored classes and there are despised classes in both and the favoritism in both was based on claims of oppression (often these people faced real oppression, of course, but the communist solution was just not the right one). In communism the favored class was the proletariat and the despised classes were aristocrats or anyone who was a bit more affluent than average. So they came and took away the money and properties of the affluent (and they were lucky if their lives were spared) supposedly for the greater good of the oppressed classes and as a way of serving "justice".
Isn't this the same now? With this new talk about restoration for slavery for black people in America, for example? Which apparently is supported by two Democrat presidential candidates (Warren and Sanders). Or this whole push for taking away the supposed "privileges" of certain groups (men, white people, straight people etc.)? Doesn't that remind you of communism? It certainly does remind me of that.
Mind you, there is a new movement called "Blexit" in which black people are leaving the Democrat Party. I don't know how wide spread it is and how threatening it really is for the Democrats but some suggested this whole restoration talk is a panic reaction to that.
|
|