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Post by Russg on Aug 25, 2019 11:21:59 GMT
Plus, even in a case like Weinstein or Cosby, every accuser should be judged on their own merits. You are always going to get bandwagon jumpers and why should they be given a free pass?
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Post by HIStoric on Aug 25, 2019 11:47:40 GMT
Plus, even in a case like Weinstein or Cosby, every accuser should be judged on their own merits. You are always going to get bandwagon jumpers and why should they be given a free pass? Generally if there is a mass number of accusers (as there are for both Weinstein and Cosby, Jimmy Saville too actually), you are going to get band wagon jumpers. If I look at them as a group I expect that. If I hone it down to an individual case by case basis, then I apply merits that I think are reasonable. With sexual abuse tending to be an evidence-less crime, we have to resort to information usually based on the testimony, behavior and history of both the accuser and accused. So if the accused has a history of committing serial sexual abuse, the ball is already heavily against them in that regard. If there’s no other reason to disbelieve the victim - ie they’re not demanding a ridiculous amount of money like Chandler, Safechuck or Robson (this does not include a very reasonable amount, say to cover therapy costs), their testimony doesn’t conflict with other information, nor do they have a past history of lying/fraudulent behavior or something else that might call into question their credibility - then yeah. I’m generally going to believe them.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 25, 2019 12:50:53 GMT
Taylor Swift seems to be on the believe-all-victims bandwagon. From an interview with The Guardian: Are these people a bit simple or something? How can you make blanket statements about sexual abuse? What, just because someone groped your bum eight years ago, suddenly you have the authority to play judge and jury and it now means everyone who comes forward is telling the truth and everyone who is accused of something is guilty? How arrogant have you got to be to think like that..... "Believe the victim" is like a religious dogma these days. Already the use of the word "victim" is prejudicial before anyone was proven to be a victim. And yes, I don't think these people are too deep. Just going by what the popular sentiment is. Plus I don't think most people notice why this attitude is a problem until they or a loved one get falsely accused.
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on Aug 25, 2019 13:01:21 GMT
They are to concerned about their careers to dare say anything different. I think this attitude is resigned to the showbiz world. Personally i think the general public have become far more ambilvient to to such cases
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Post by Russg on Aug 25, 2019 13:32:22 GMT
They are to concerned about their careers to dare say anything different. I think this attitude is resigned to the showbiz world. Personally i think the general public have become far more ambilvient to to such cases I think you are right. Most of the comments in the comments section are disagreeing with Swift. Plus, most folks who live in the real world have problems that go a bit beyond some sleazy industry guy getting a bit frisky with a millionaire actress/singer. There's something terribly self-serving about the celebrity endorsement of the MeToo era. Nobody suffers like a celebrity. Nevermind the fact that half of these actresses probably willingly pimped themselves out to get roles and are only moaning about it now they're rich and famous. It's the only explanation as to why there's so many mediocre people in the industry. Their sorry asses would still be waiting tables in some LA divebar if they had a shred of self-respect.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 25, 2019 14:53:07 GMT
Also, a lot of it is hypocritical because many of them know about powerful people doing this or that but stay silent and only speak up when it's beneficial for them. Eg. they say Weinstein's actions were an open secret in the industry. But the same thing is true of the media. I tweeted not so long ago about the big difference in how Vanity Fair treated MJ vs. how they treated Epstein.
In March 2003 journalist Vicky Ward wrote an explosive article about Jeffrey Epstein for Vanity Fair. She wanted to talk about three sexual abuse allegations against him that she heard from three accusers. Vanity Fair didn't let her publish the article in its original form. They made her take out the sexual abuse allegations and the article was sugarcoated in that regard and only focused on Epstein's business practices.
So this was all that was said about his relationship with "mostly young women".
Now Ward tweeted about this and called out Vanity Fair for the censorship. Vanity Fair defends with referencing their strict rules four sources:
Now, that sounds like just responsible journalism, right? (Although, actually Ward had the accusers themselves on record.) Nothing is published without bullet proof sources?
Well, wrong. It depends on the subject of the article, apparently. If it is Michael Jackson, then anything goes.
Just one month later, in the next issue of Vanity Fair we have Maureen Orth's National Enquirer level BS about MJ:
Did this story have three credible sources? Since it is complete BS, I doubt it. Or it is simply that this was about a man much less in the graces of the white liberal establishment media? And he was a much easier target for the bullies of the media too.
The source of this bullcrap was a man called Myung-Ho Lee, a former business advisor with whom MJ were suing each other at the time,so if anything the bias of the source would have warranted Vanity Fair to be as rigorous about the sources rule as they were in Epstein's case, but they weren't.
This same source then also provided Orth with another story claiming that MJ gave alcohol to a then 12 year old boy named Richard Matsuurra in 1998, during a visit to Japan. Once again, it was a fabrication. The boy himself decided to defend MJ in the media. He and his family stated that the story was false.
Orth admitted she never reached out to the boy or his family. As you can see in the above video, Vanity Fair still insisted on the story, based on the words of one man, Lee, even after the boy in question came out to say it wasn't true. Let me remind that the same Vanity Fair didn't want to publish a story on Epstein only a month before where three accusers were on the record making allegations, citing insufficient sources as a reason...
Now, tell me if there isn't double standards and hypocrisy in the industry.
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on Aug 25, 2019 15:48:53 GMT
Editor/owner of V.F was prob buddies with epstein or heck even visited a few "parties"!? Mj was/is the wipping boy to hide whats really going on in hollywood. A diversion tactic
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Post by respect77 on Aug 26, 2019 18:07:08 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers.
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Post by MattyJam on Aug 26, 2019 18:41:47 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers. Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of. Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back.
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Post by aazzaabb on Aug 26, 2019 18:44:06 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers. Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of. Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back. Truth!
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,468
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Post by TonyR on Aug 26, 2019 19:06:14 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers. Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of. Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back. Ooh what did the lovely Janelle Monae say?
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Post by MattyJam on Aug 26, 2019 19:08:47 GMT
Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of. Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back. Ooh what did the lovely Janelle Monae say? She tweeted a month or two ago saying how she still misses MJ and will always love him. She didn't directly mention LN, but she still showed her support.
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Post by suzie on Aug 26, 2019 23:56:46 GMT
They are to concerned about their careers to dare say anything different. I think this attitude is resigned to the showbiz world. Personally i think the general public have become far more ambilvient to to such cases I think you are right. Most of the comments in the comments section are disagreeing with Swift. Plus, most folks who live in the real world have problems that go a bit beyond some sleazy industry guy getting a bit frisky with a millionaire actress/singer. There's something terribly self-serving about the celebrity endorsement of the MeToo era. Nobody suffers like a celebrity. Nevermind the fact that half of these actresses probably willingly pimped themselves out to get roles and are only moaning about it now they're rich and famous. It's the only explanation as to why there's so many mediocre people in the industry. Their sorry asses would still be waiting tables in some LA divebar if they had a shred of self-respect. I agree! No one in real life really cares lol
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Post by suzie on Aug 26, 2019 23:59:56 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers. Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of. Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back. That’s because we know how black artist aren’t given the same treatment by the press. It’s easy for them to try to tear down MJ but they wouldn’t do it to their own. Black celebrities are held to this unusually high standard that white artist aren’t held to. They used to treat Whitney like trash. Janet was blackballed after the super bowl and how the press treats the Jackson’s period. I never expected the white press to tell the truth about MJ. I’m sure he didn’t either. It’s two white men(with questionable character and stories) accusing a series black man of sexual molestation. Of course we knew what side they were going to be on.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 27, 2019 3:37:25 GMT
He doesn't believe MJ's accusers but does believe R. Kelly's accusers. Apologies in advance for bringing up the race issue, but anyone else notice how very few big white celebs have spoken up in support of MJ? Madonna and Celine Dion are the only ones I can think of.Whereas MJs own race have come out in full force. Snoop, P Diddy, Spike Lee, NeYo, Diana Ross, Dave Chappelle, Missy Elliott, Janelle Monae, Sisqo, Chris Tucker, George Benson, Chuck D.... and I'm sure I've forgotten some. It's nice that MJs own race still has his back.
Let's not forget Pink and Boy George! But that's about it, indeed. I don't think it is a coincidence either, that it's the older, more mature artists who says "fuck it, I have my own mind, I won't bow down to peer pressure". I think a lot of artists are so afraid of being ostracized if they stand up for MJ, because of MeToo. Most artists exist in a liberal bubble and very much dependent at the graces of the (liberal) media. And we know what that media is pushing. Black (and some older) artists are definitely the ones who give less fucks about that.
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