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Post by Snow White on Feb 13, 2019 18:33:28 GMT
Good to see many people putting this Matt Lucas racist guy in his place for refusing to look for the facts but I don't like some of these people are lumping David Bowie and Woody Allen into this mess Lori Mattix has zero credibility because she has constantly changed her claims about David and there isn't a single picture of them together. As for Woody he was investigated by Child Social Services and found no evidence of Mia and Dylan Farrow claims. CSS cleared Michael before the trial too.
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Post by MattyJam on Feb 13, 2019 18:36:40 GMT
kremlinshadow Can we keep the Jewish talk out of this thread please? Whether it's anti-semetic or not I don't know, as I haven't followed your posts closely enough to make a judgement. But if you want to discuss industry conspiracy theories, please do so in a seperate thread to this one.
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Post by kremlinshadow on Feb 13, 2019 18:53:43 GMT
kremlinshadow Can we keep the Jewish talk out of this thread please? Whether it's anti-semetic or not I don't know, as I haven't followed your posts closely enough to make a judgement. But if you want to discuss industry conspiracy theories, please do so in a seperate thread to this one. It was in relation to Matt Lucas who is now spouting off about how MJ can rot after somehow previewing Leaving Neverland in LA. and refusing to read facts given to him - It was neither conspiracy or anti-semetic it was in relation to the Hollywood mafia who is openly pushing this agenda with Leaving Neverland. I have a lot more up top than to come in spouting unsubstantiated claims. I'll abide by your rules as it's your board but quite simply TonyR & Innuendo are being hysterical bullies.
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Post by MattyJam on Feb 13, 2019 19:00:30 GMT
kremlinshadow Can we keep the Jewish talk out of this thread please? Whether it's anti-semetic or not I don't know, as I haven't followed your posts closely enough to make a judgement. But if you want to discuss industry conspiracy theories, please do so in a seperate thread to this one. It was in relation to Matt Lucas who is now spouting off about how MJ can rot after somehow previewing Leaving Neverland in LA. and refusing to read facts given to him - It was neither conspiracy or anti-semetic it was in relation to the Hollywood mafia who is openly pushing this agenda with Leaving Neverland. I have a lot more up top than to come in spouting unsubstantiated claims. I'll abide by your rules as it's your board but quite simply TonyR & Innuendo are being hysterical bullies. I just think this is an important thread to keep on topic. I don't usually care if threads get derailed by arguments/debates etc, but this thread needs to stay on topic. Other members don't want to trawl through pages of back and fourth arguments when they're just checking this thread to see the latest developments with LN. That goes for everyone, not just you kremlin.
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Feb 13, 2019 20:22:47 GMT
So do we think that the estate will be able to do anything once this airs? A small part of me is thinking they're just waiting until its actually been on tv but maybe that's me being hopeful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 22:40:29 GMT
So do we think that the estate will be able to do anything once this airs? A small part of me is thinking they're just waiting until its actually been on tv but maybe that's me being hopeful. I think this because that's when it'll really matter
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Post by russtcb on Feb 13, 2019 22:41:34 GMT
So do we think that the estate will be able to do anything once this airs? A small part of me is thinking they're just waiting until its actually been on tv but maybe that's me being hopeful. I don't think they have any legal action they can take, which is unfortunate.
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Post by Russg on Feb 13, 2019 22:43:41 GMT
I think the trouble is with a lot of this stuff that fans are presenting as evidence, most of it is, at best, circumstantial. What does Wade lying about knowing MJ had an estate actually have to do with his allegations against MJ? I know you will probably say that it shows that he was prepared to lie under oath in the pursuit of furthering his case, but that still isn't proof that he is lying about the sexual abuse. I'm not saying I believe Wade (I don't), but I'm thinking about how much of this so-called evidence that fans get so excited about actually means anything? Imagine you're a member of the general public who watches this documentary and then you spot MJ fans on Twitter presenting this stuff as evidence? It's hardly compelling and doesn't actually prove jack. Same with Brandi Jackson's recent tweets. What does her having dated Wade for seven years have to do with anything? I agree it is odd that it was MJ who set them up, but I guess you could counter that by saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." People who believe Wade will just say MJ wanted to keep him in the Jackson family fold so he wouldn't be tempted to turn on him. Until such a time as Wade/James/Gavin/Jordan are caught out admitting they lied, nothing is going to PROVE MJs innocence. It will just be a fan theory and the whole thing will, at best, go down as a massive question mark over his life story. You know that there is no such thing as proving someone's innocence, right? So you basically set MJ fans up to the impossible task of having to prove a negative. You, who seem so easily to believe everything you read in tabloids now come back to us and say evidence of these people lying under oath, while claiming their case is about getting the truth out there, is somehow irrelevant? No, it isn't. Just like it isn't irrelevant and it wasn't irrelevant to a jury that the Arvizos were lying. To people who want MJ to be guilty everything will be irrelevant, of course. But it isn't. The burden of proof is not on us, but on those who claim MJ committed these crimes. That works like that in court and in science as well, exactly because you can't prove a negative, that something did not happen. So why don't you demand them to show evidence of their claims? Why do you place the burden of proof on the accused? By your standards, let's just lock up everyone who is ever accused of this type of crime and let's consider them guilty until proven innocent. If the circumstancial evidence of an accuser being a liar cannot be used then how would you defend a person falsely accused of such a crime? Just lock him up, right? Fans aren't the ones in the wrong here. The media is, who consider allegations in themselves as facts. No, they aren't and if people had brains and the media had morals they would not treat them as facts either. The "theory" here is not fan's "theory" of him being innocent. The never proven "theory" here is that he is guilty. You have it all backwards. The burden of proof is on those who allege something. I think you are ignoring the fact that sex crimes are very hard to prove and virtually impossible when they are decades old. It often boils down to one persons word against another’s, and unfortunately for MJ, he can’t even defend himself as these allegations are posthumous. I’m not being antagonistic, I’m just trying to take off my MJ fan hat and look at this the way I think the general public will once the documentary airs. Just because the evidence against Wade/James is circumstantial, it doesn’t make it irrelevant. All I was saying though is that I don’t think non-fans who watch Leaving Neverland are going to be swayed by court documents which show Wade lying under oath or fans pointing out inconsistencies in their stories. They will hear the allegations, be emotionally manipulated into believing them by the documentary makers, and feel confident that after watching a four hour programme on the subject, they know everything there is to know about the MJ allegations. Do fans really think that their arguments are going to change anyone’s minds after watching Leaving Neverland? They won’t, I can guarantee that. As I said before, the ONLY thing that will make people think twice is if a past accuser retracts their allegations. People simply don’t believe that false allegations are a problem.
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Post by pg13 on Feb 13, 2019 23:24:21 GMT
You know that there is no such thing as proving someone's innocence, right? So you basically set MJ fans up to the impossible task of having to prove a negative. You, who seem so easily to believe everything you read in tabloids now come back to us and say evidence of these people lying under oath, while claiming their case is about getting the truth out there, is somehow irrelevant? No, it isn't. Just like it isn't irrelevant and it wasn't irrelevant to a jury that the Arvizos were lying. To people who want MJ to be guilty everything will be irrelevant, of course. But it isn't. The burden of proof is not on us, but on those who claim MJ committed these crimes. That works like that in court and in science as well, exactly because you can't prove a negative, that something did not happen. So why don't you demand them to show evidence of their claims? Why do you place the burden of proof on the accused? By your standards, let's just lock up everyone who is ever accused of this type of crime and let's consider them guilty until proven innocent. If the circumstancial evidence of an accuser being a liar cannot be used then how would you defend a person falsely accused of such a crime? Just lock him up, right? Fans aren't the ones in the wrong here. The media is, who consider allegations in themselves as facts. No, they aren't and if people had brains and the media had morals they would not treat them as facts either. The "theory" here is not fan's "theory" of him being innocent. The never proven "theory" here is that he is guilty. You have it all backwards. The burden of proof is on those who allege something. I think you are ignoring the fact that sex crimes are very hard to prove and virtually impossible when they are decades old. It often boils down to one persons word against another’s, and unfortunately for MJ, he can’t even defend himself as these allegations are posthumous. I’m not being antagonistic, I’m just trying to take off my MJ fan hat and look at this the way I think the general public will once the documentary airs. Just because the evidence against Wade/James is circumstantial, it doesn’t make it irrelevant. All I was saying though is that I don’t think non-fans who watch Leaving Neverland are going to be swayed by court documents which show Wade lying under oath or fans pointing out inconsistencies in their stories. They will hear the allegations, be emotionally manipulated into believing them by the documentary makers, and feel confident that after watching a four hour programme on the subject, they know everything there is to know about the MJ allegations. Do fans really think that their arguments are going to change anyone’s minds after watching Leaving Neverland? They won’t, I can guarantee that. As I said before, the ONLY thing that will make people think twice is if a past accuser retracts their allegations. People simply don’t believe that false allegations are a problem. Then, we demonstrate how much of a problem false accusations really are. It's not like there's a shortage of real world examples, especially involving Joe Bloggs down the road. Plenty of innocent people have been wrongly accused of paedophilia. And had their lives ruined. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/21/innocent-people-wrongly-accused-paedophiles-arrested-had-children/Hell, a self-proclaimed "paedophile hunter" has ruined a man's life after making a false accusation. www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-hampshire-43201269Same thing in Belfast, Northern Ireland. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/falsely-accused-belfast-man-slams-vigilante-paedophile-hunters-36450259.htmlThis is the man who was burnt alive after falsely being accused of paedophilia in Bristol, England: www.ajc.com/news/local/man-wrongly-accused-being-pedophile-burned-alive/X0PwLCPPpb5nylVNALEJ1O/amp.htmlBut all of this demonstrates to us all about the real and dangerous power of the accusation. In particular, there's nothing more dangerous than an accusation of paedophilia. Both true and false.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Feb 14, 2019 4:24:47 GMT
You know that there is no such thing as proving someone's innocence, right? So you basically set MJ fans up to the impossible task of having to prove a negative. You, who seem so easily to believe everything you read in tabloids now come back to us and say evidence of these people lying under oath, while claiming their case is about getting the truth out there, is somehow irrelevant? No, it isn't. Just like it isn't irrelevant and it wasn't irrelevant to a jury that the Arvizos were lying. To people who want MJ to be guilty everything will be irrelevant, of course. But it isn't. The burden of proof is not on us, but on those who claim MJ committed these crimes. That works like that in court and in science as well, exactly because you can't prove a negative, that something did not happen. So why don't you demand them to show evidence of their claims? Why do you place the burden of proof on the accused? By your standards, let's just lock up everyone who is ever accused of this type of crime and let's consider them guilty until proven innocent. If the circumstancial evidence of an accuser being a liar cannot be used then how would you defend a person falsely accused of such a crime? Just lock him up, right? Fans aren't the ones in the wrong here. The media is, who consider allegations in themselves as facts. No, they aren't and if people had brains and the media had morals they would not treat them as facts either. The "theory" here is not fan's "theory" of him being innocent. The never proven "theory" here is that he is guilty. You have it all backwards. The burden of proof is on those who allege something. I think you are ignoring the fact that sex crimes are very hard to prove and virtually impossible when they are decades old. It often boils down to one persons word against another’s, and unfortunately for MJ, he can’t even defend himself as these allegations are posthumous. I’m not being antagonistic, I’m just trying to take off my MJ fan hat and look at this the way I think the general public will once the documentary airs. Just because the evidence against Wade/James is circumstantial, it doesn’t make it irrelevant. All I was saying though is that I don’t think non-fans who watch Leaving Neverland are going to be swayed by court documents which show Wade lying under oath or fans pointing out inconsistencies in their stories. They will hear the allegations, be emotionally manipulated into believing them by the documentary makers, and feel confident that after watching a four hour programme on the subject, they know everything there is to know about the MJ allegations. Do fans really think that their arguments are going to change anyone’s minds after watching Leaving Neverland? They won’t, I can guarantee that. As I said before, the ONLY thing that will make people think twice is if a past accuser retracts their allegations. People simply don’t believe that false allegations are a problem.
Yes, I know that many people will believe it. I know that most people are too lazy to read up on complex matters that would reveal the credibility issues of these subjects. You are not saying anything new with that. We all know it is going to be a shitstorm come March.
However, I don't think that should stop or discourage any of us from posting the truth, court documents, counter-arguments etc. There may always be people who are actually willing to listen, even if a minority. Or casual fans who might get insecure because of the documentary and would need a counter argument. I really don't think the work fans do with it is futile. No, it won't stop the shitstorm, but a different perspective needs to be out there for those who care. It is always easier to criticize those from the sideline who do the heavy lifting.
And like it was said before in this thread, besides hard cold facts, we also need to go for the hearts and emotions of people. Fans cannot do that. That is more up to the family and the Estate. Things like MJ's children speaking up. I think Taj speaking was good, it needs to continue. People who knew Wade from the family, like Brandi, speaking up is good too. Brett and Mac and other boys who were around MJ (especially Brett and Mac, since they are named in the film) need to speak up too. The Estate needs to organize something regarding that IMO. A press conference or something. To give a human face to MJ's defense as MJ himself is not here. To show there are real people on the other side of it who are affected.
And there is a bigger picture like pg13 said. False allegations do exist and they aren't as extremely rare as these abuse victim's advocacy groups want us to believe. Especially when money is involved. When people rob and even kill for money, why do people think this chance (which is a lot less risky than robbing a bank or killing someone) would not attract greedy opportunists?
In this metoo era it is a taboo to talk about even the existence of false allegations and it needs to change. This culture of believing the "victim" needs to be called out. It is not a good development for society, it is an extremely dangerous one. Yes, accusers need to be listened to. As well as the accused. Then an impartial investigation and vetting of these cases needs to take place. Belief shouldn't be a part of it. Calling people "victims" who are not yet proven to be victims shouldn't be a part of it. One-sided media lynch mobs should not be a part of it. This whole hysteria dismantles fundamental principles of modern society like the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and that is a very dangerous route.
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on Feb 14, 2019 8:09:19 GMT
Out of intrest has anyone found any connection between lucas and reed. I find it very worrisome and tbh is it something we have never really seen before where theres been such a conserted effort to promote such a programe by other celebs. When u look at the oprah /gayle tweets. Its very odd for celebs to do such a thing for something that has no supposed connection to them. Its like the influencers on youtube but a whole other level.
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on Feb 14, 2019 8:13:19 GMT
Below posted by a friend on another board. Brown i believe is a fan so presuming he wasnt invited so got a fake pass?
Loads of folks were posting pics of press passes to Ch4 yesterday, including Derren Brown who used a fake one to get in. I have a feeling they screened it for employees, press etc.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Feb 14, 2019 8:58:49 GMT
Out of intrest has anyone found any connection between lucas and reed. I find it very worrisome and tbh is it something we have never really seen before where theres been such a conserted effort to promote such a programe by other celebs. When u look at the oprah /gayle tweets. Its very odd for celebs to do such a thing for something that has no supposed connection to them. Its like the influencers on youtube but a whole other level. You got to wonder about the massive promotion it gets, especially among celebrities and other influencers. You got to wonder what is going on here. It's not like it's Star Wars. Celebrities are getting special advanced screenings while MJ's family is being told they can't watch it in advance, they need to wait until it airs. There seems to be an absolutely concentrated effort to create a one-sided hype around it, while blocking any chance for a counter argument to get out there.
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Post by Cloudbuster on Feb 14, 2019 9:55:29 GMT
All this just because a psychopath didn't get the job he wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 11:18:03 GMT
All this just because a psychopath didn't get the job he wanted. "JUST WATCH THE FIIIIILM" repeat ad nauseam
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