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Post by russtcb on Mar 1, 2020 8:33:49 GMT
In short; Michael can be easily forgiven for lip syncing. To say otherwise is to not even remotely understand how demanding performing was on him.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 1, 2020 9:23:01 GMT
Yes, this. I'm not a vocal expert but I always felt that many of MJ's songs are very challenging vocally. Add that he's also dancing on stage and it was really not easy for him to do a full live show. Not impossible, of course, as he proved on the Bad Tour and before but it's tough and does take a toll. And it's a good point how his songs very diverse in vocal style and it's really not easy to change from Rock with You to Scream or vica versa during a live show. I also think he had some physical problems later on in his career. (Which Charles was dismissive of too. But we know for a fact that already on the HIStory Tour he had so bad sleeping issues that he used Propofol. I don't think such a thing will allow anyone to be psychically in top shape.) So once again, people need to consider the differences between different styles and genres. With a rock band that doesn't have songs with especially challenging vocals and their whole game is just standing on stage and play their instruments with some mediocre vocals and with all of their songs requiring the same, monotonous vocal style - hell, they better sing live! Say the Smashing Pumpkins. Lol. But it's not really fair to expect the same from an act that does much more physically demanding stuff on stage and on top of that with vocally more challenging songs. I wonder if this discussion can be placed in the context of rockism vs. poptimism debate, where again pop music is set to rockist standards with disregard to the unique challenges of a pop performance (dance, choreography, with often vocally more challenging songs etc)? There's also the misconception that because someone is exceptionally gifted, they find it easy. Will.i.am said that MJ spent hours warming up his voice before hitting the studio when they worked together and that he'd never experienced anything like that before with anyone else he'd worked with. Fans love to think of MJ as being superhuman,but he couldn't just roll out of bed and produce an exquisite vocal performance on a tap without intense warming up of the vocal chords first. Of course, MJ had a naturally beautiful tone, but take a look at the WMA 2006 when they literally shoved a microphone in front of him to try and force him into a performance. He sings a little and although he doesn't sound bad, he's using head voice/falsetto to produce some of those higher notes. On the studio demo he sings those same parts effortlessly in a mixed voice and sounds great. The media tried to push the angle that MJ had lost his voice, but the great live performances of IJCSLY and Human Nature on TII prove that was bs. With the WMA 06, he hadn't anticipated someone literally bullying him out onto stage and therefore didn't prepare or warm up the voice. Another misconception about singing is that you can always reproduce the same results once you've trained. Singing is a discipline like learning to play any instrument, and if you don't practise everyday, you will start to suck. The larynx is a muscle, which has muscle memory. If you don't use that muscle regularly, it won't work. MJs vocal coach on TII said that they'd worked extensively on building MJs voice back up and this would be because he hadn't toured or recorded in many years and it would've taken time to get his voice where it needed to be. There are dozen of variables that effect how good you sound, and tiredness is a big one. Singing can be a very frustrating artform to practise, because one day you can be hitting all the notes with ease and the next it can take an hour and a half of warming up the voice first to produce the same result. The difference is usually down to something physical, like how well rested you are or whether you've had a stressful day. Tiredness and tension are the enemies of a singer. My singing teacher used to get me to use the Alexander technique to relieve tension and it's incredible to see how carrying lower tension in your back for example, can adversely effect what you're capable of producing with your voice. If MJ was sleep deprived on the HIStory tour, there is no way he would be able to give decent vocal performances night after night. HIStoric questionned why he didn't try and perform some of the slower songs like Stranger In Moscow, but even that song has a very demanding chest voice section at the end (the "we're talking danger" part). That is the part of MJs voice that would be the most challenging for him to produce, as is evidenced by the fact that whenever The Voice/X Factor singers cover Earth Song, they pretend as if the What About Us section of the song doesn't exist. I keep talking about Earth Song, because that is one of the most extreme examples (probably alongside Keep The Faith), where he is singing with that aggressive, shouting chest voice for a prolonged period of time. That's why it makes me laugh when you see those graph charts of singers ranges and it looks like people like Justin Timberlake or Prince hit higher notes than MJ. Yes, maybe they do using their head voice or falsetto, which is relatively easy to accomplish, but these guys would never be able to replicate MJs chest voice range even on their best day. The reason why MJs songs became increasingly more challenging from a technical standpoint is because he used that "Earth Song voice" a lot, albeit fleetingly on many songs on Bad, Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible. And it's the transition between the two, from the clean mixed voice, to the angry chest voice which is challenging, and would cause MJ to struggle to perform much of this material live. When you really study his catalogue from a vocal perspective, there are songs which sound deceptively easy, where you wouldn't necessarily identify him using that "Earth Song voice", but he does it fleetingly to accomplish the higher notes, instead of using head voice or falsetto like many singers would. A song like You Are My Life for example, the middle eight section, the "love was always here waiting for me" line uses that angry chest voice. It's just one line, but I'd wager that if MJ were just to roll out of bed and try and sing that song, he would have to use his falsetto to sing that bit, as his angry chest voices isn't something that can just be turned on like a tap. If a singer like Usher or Timberlake were to sing that same song, they would not be able to pull off that line without copping out and using falsetto, no matter how many takes they did. I personally believe this is why MJ didn't perform more songs from the Dangerous album on the Dangerous tour and why the new songs on HIStory were all lip-synched on the HIStory tour. He transitions constantly from his mixed voice to his chest voice on those albums, making it almost impossible to pull off a lot of those songs live on a two and a half hour show. Perhaps if he was doing a one-off performance, then it would be more realistic. What MJ achieved vocally on Bad, Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible is nothing short of spectacular, and utterly, utterly world class. But in essence, MJ became a studio singer after the Bad tour, focusing his efforts on producing vocal performances in the studio which other singers could only dream of pulling off. He could've chosen to focus more on the live singing aspect of his career, but then he would've had to dial back some of the more ambitious vocal songs on his albums to realistically be able to perform his music live. And I don't know about you, but I would rather have the world class vocal performances on songs that I can enjoy for the rest of my life, than MJ have been less demanding of his voice, and produced material that was easier to sing just so that he could pull it off live. Preach! And I'm sure all of us prefer MJ singing live and yes, my choice is the Bad Tour any time over the HIStory Tour. But I feel the things that you so well outlined in the above post are often ignored and not taken into account when people obsess about who is lipsynching and who isn't. A rock band like Pink Floyd better not lipsynch because the vocals in their songs aren't that challenging (their music is more instrument-focused). But I can give it a pass in the case of some other acts for reasons cited above. So in summary when judging lipsynching a lot depends on the type of music, type of show, and other circumstances. But of course, rockists often like to ridicule pop performers for lipsynching, without considering the unique challenges of a pop performance compared to a rock performance or the differences in the difficulty of songs in terms of vocals. Their usual answer to that "So if it's that difficult to do that choreography while singing them they shouldn't do that choreography, just stand there and sing". But isn't that basically demanding to have the same preferences in a performance as rockists do? What if someone would love to see a high octane dancing performance rather than just someone standing still on stage and giving us the perfect live vocals? Why can't both have its place and not be judged based on the aesthetics of the other? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 9:42:53 GMT
There's also the misconception that because someone is exceptionally gifted, they find it easy. Will.i.am said that MJ spent hours warming up his voice before hitting the studio when they worked together and that he'd never experienced anything like that before with anyone else he'd worked with. Fans love to think of MJ as being superhuman,but he couldn't just roll out of bed and produce an exquisite vocal performance on a tap without intense warming up of the vocal chords first. Of course, MJ had a naturally beautiful tone, but take a look at the WMA 2006 when they literally shoved a microphone in front of him to try and force him into a performance. He sings a little and although he doesn't sound bad, he's using head voice/falsetto to produce some of those higher notes. On the studio demo he sings those same parts effortlessly in a mixed voice and sounds great. The media tried to push the angle that MJ had lost his voice, but the great live performances of IJCSLY and Human Nature on TII prove that was bs. With the WMA 06, he hadn't anticipated someone literally bullying him out onto stage and therefore didn't prepare or warm up the voice. Another misconception about singing is that you can always reproduce the same results once you've trained. Singing is a discipline like learning to play any instrument, and if you don't practise everyday, you will start to suck. The larynx is a muscle, which has muscle memory. If you don't use that muscle regularly, it won't work. MJs vocal coach on TII said that they'd worked extensively on building MJs voice back up and this would be because he hadn't toured or recorded in many years and it would've taken time to get his voice where it needed to be. There are dozen of variables that effect how good you sound, and tiredness is a big one. Singing can be a very frustrating artform to practise, because one day you can be hitting all the notes with ease and the next it can take an hour and a half of warming up the voice first to produce the same result. The difference is usually down to something physical, like how well rested you are or whether you've had a stressful day. Tiredness and tension are the enemies of a singer. My singing teacher used to get me to use the Alexander technique to relieve tension and it's incredible to see how carrying lower tension in your back for example, can adversely effect what you're capable of producing with your voice. If MJ was sleep deprived on the HIStory tour, there is no way he would be able to give decent vocal performances night after night. HIStoric questionned why he didn't try and perform some of the slower songs like Stranger In Moscow, but even that song has a very demanding chest voice section at the end (the "we're talking danger" part). That is the part of MJs voice that would be the most challenging for him to produce, as is evidenced by the fact that whenever The Voice/X Factor singers cover Earth Song, they pretend as if the What About Us section of the song doesn't exist. I keep talking about Earth Song, because that is one of the most extreme examples (probably alongside Keep The Faith), where he is singing with that aggressive, shouting chest voice for a prolonged period of time. That's why it makes me laugh when you see those graph charts of singers ranges and it looks like people like Justin Timberlake or Prince hit higher notes than MJ. Yes, maybe they do using their head voice or falsetto, which is relatively easy to accomplish, but these guys would never be able to replicate MJs chest voice range even on their best day. The reason why MJs songs became increasingly more challenging from a technical standpoint is because he used that "Earth Song voice" a lot, albeit fleetingly on many songs on Bad, Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible. And it's the transition between the two, from the clean mixed voice, to the angry chest voice which is challenging, and would cause MJ to struggle to perform much of this material live. When you really study his catalogue from a vocal perspective, there are songs which sound deceptively easy, where you wouldn't necessarily identify him using that "Earth Song voice", but he does it fleetingly to accomplish the higher notes, instead of using head voice or falsetto like many singers would. A song like You Are My Life for example, the middle eight section, the "love was always here waiting for me" line uses that angry chest voice. It's just one line, but I'd wager that if MJ were just to roll out of bed and try and sing that song, he would have to use his falsetto to sing that bit, as his angry chest voices isn't something that can just be turned on like a tap. If a singer like Usher or Timberlake were to sing that same song, they would not be able to pull off that line without copping out and using falsetto, no matter how many takes they did. I personally believe this is why MJ didn't perform more songs from the Dangerous album on the Dangerous tour and why the new songs on HIStory were all lip-synched on the HIStory tour. He transitions constantly from his mixed voice to his chest voice on those albums, making it almost impossible to pull off a lot of those songs live on a two and a half hour show. Perhaps if he was doing a one-off performance, then it would be more realistic. What MJ achieved vocally on Bad, Dangerous, HIStory and Invincible is nothing short of spectacular, and utterly, utterly world class. But in essence, MJ became a studio singer after the Bad tour, focusing his efforts on producing vocal performances in the studio which other singers could only dream of pulling off. He could've chosen to focus more on the live singing aspect of his career, but then he would've had to dial back some of the more ambitious vocal songs on his albums to realistically be able to perform his music live. And I don't know about you, but I would rather have the world class vocal performances on songs that I can enjoy for the rest of my life, than MJ have been less demanding of his voice, and produced material that was easier to sing just so that he could pull it off live. Preach! And I'm sure all of us prefer MJ singing live and yes, my choice is the Bad Tour any time over the HIStory Tour. But I feel the things that you so well outlined in the above post are often ignored and not taken into account when people obsess about who is lipsynching and who isn't. A rock band like Pink Floyd better not lipsynch because the vocals in their songs aren't that challenging (their music is more instrument-focused). But I can give it a pass in the case of some other acts for reasons cited above. So in summary when judging lipsynching a lot depends on the type of music, type of show, and other circumstances. But of course, rockists often like to ridicule pop performers for lipsynching, without considering the unique challenges of a pop performance compared to a rock performance or the differences in the difficulty of songs in terms of vocals. Their usual answer to that "So if it's that difficult to do that choreography while singing them they shouldn't do that choreography, just stand there and sing". But isn't that basically demanding to have the same preferences in a performance as rockists do? What if someone would love to see a high octane dancing performance rather than just someone standing still on stage and giving us the perfect live vocals? Why can't both have its place and not be judged based on the aesthetics of the other? I remember maybe 15 years ago when Britney's live mic vocals were leaked from some TV special. Initially, it was just the audio without context of what she was doing. It was so unfair because when you watched the video, she was in the middle of doing a dance routine that was like a mix between crossfit and gymnastics. |
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Post by HIStoric on Mar 1, 2020 10:20:29 GMT
HIStoric questionned why he didn't try and perform some of the slower songs like Stranger In Moscow, but even that song has a very demanding chest voice section at the end (the "we're talking danger" part). Yeah, but at the very end. Surely he could've sung the verses and then, if need be, switch to a pre-recorded ending for when it gets too tough? Lip syncing the entire studio recording isn't the be all end all. There are ways around those issues. It can be a balance.
Honestly I keep writing out paragraphs (and I do have other thoughts on various parts of this topic but it's getting late), however it really just back to me wanting to hear something new. If it has to be pre-recorded with him then fine so be it - after all even on HIStory tour there's still parts that are legitimately live so that can satisfy that element.
In saying what I've said, I'll happily put my hand up and say that my knowledge of singing on a technical level is very limited and that I might be (probably am) wrong in some areas. I feel sorry that he felt the need to be keep performing at the level of a 25 year old as a 50 year old. I would've loved to see him transition into the kind of show where he can just sit down (or stand there) every night, have no burden of spinning around the stage for 2 hours, and just let his voice shine. Change up songs vocally as need be, or cut those if he cannot truly perform them - it's not like he doesn't have a whole arsenal of other incredible songs to pick from  |
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Post by SoCav on Mar 1, 2020 14:44:11 GMT
HIStoric questionned why he didn't try and perform some of the slower songs like Stranger In Moscow, but even that song has a very demanding chest voice section at the end (the "we're talking danger" part). In saying what I've said, I'll happily put my hand up and say that my knowledge of singing on a technical level is very limited and that I might be (probably am) wrong in some areas. I feel sorry that he felt the need to be keep performing at the level of a 25 year old as a 50 year old. I would've loved to see him transition into the kind of show where he can just sit down (or stand there) every night, have no burden of spinning around the stage for 2 hours, and just let his voice shine. Change up songs vocally as need be, or cut those if he cannot truly perform them - it's not like he doesn't have a whole arsenal of other incredible songs to pick from Totally agree with all of this. While we will never really know MJ's reasons for lipsynicing to such a massive extent, I can't help but think that's a big part of it. He had a certain idea of what people wanted to see and felt he had to deliver on that. If he could no longer do so vocally and had to lipsync a big part of the show, so be it: he'd rather do that than adapt his performance. It reminds me of an anecdote of some fans singing Got To Be There outside of his hotel room window in the 90s. He told them he loved that song and was surprised they knew it. When they asked if he'd consider performing it, he said he'd love to, but that it's not what his fans would want to see. It's odd because he never really constrained himself in the studio to that extent. Yes, he still wanted every album to be a big blockbuster, have it feature something for everyone, etc - and I have often wondered what MJ's discography would have sounded like if he had been less concerned about all of this. But especially with Dangerous and HIStory/BOTDF, he certainly took things into some eccentric directions and really marched to the beat of his own drum. It's strange to me that he did seem to have faith that his audience would follow him when it came to his studio projects (or that he simply did not care whether they would or not), but did not want to take any risks in a live setting. It's really no wonder that he seemed to lose interest in live performance as the years went on... |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Mar 1, 2020 17:50:43 GMT
In saying what I've said, I'll happily put my hand up and say that my knowledge of singing on a technical level is very limited and that I might be (probably am) wrong in some areas. I feel sorry that he felt the need to be keep performing at the level of a 25 year old as a 50 year old. I would've loved to see him transition into the kind of show where he can just sit down (or stand there) every night, have no burden of spinning around the stage for 2 hours, and just let his voice shine. Change up songs vocally as need be, or cut those if he cannot truly perform them - it's not like he doesn't have a whole arsenal of other incredible songs to pick from Totally agree with all of this. While we will never really know MJ's reasons for lipsynicing to such a massive extent, I can't help but think that's a big part of it. He had a certain idea of what people wanted to see and felt he had to deliver on that. If he could no longer do so vocally and had to lipsync a big part of the show, so be it: he'd rather do that than adapt his performance. It reminds me of an anecdote of some fans singing Got To Be There outside of his hotel room window in the 90s. He told them he loved that song and was surprised they knew it. When they asked if he'd consider performing it, he said he'd love to, but that it's not what his fans would want to see. It's odd because he never really constrained himself in the studio to that extent. Yes, he still wanted every album to be a big blockbuster, have it feature something for everyone, etc - and I have often wondered what MJ's discography would have sounded like if he had been less concerned about all of this. But especially with Dangerous and HIStory/BOTDF, he certainly took things into some eccentric directions and really marched to the beat of his own drum. It's strange to me that he did seem to have faith that his audience would follow him when it came to his studio projects (or that he simply did not care whether they would or not), but did not want to take any risks in a live setting. It's really no wonder that he seemed to lose interest in live performance as the years went on... This sums up everything for me. If I drew a graph of Michael's studio output compared with his live performances it pretty much makes a giant cross. His studio music 1979 to 1997 just got better and better and better. Trying new things and really pushing the envelope. Yes live he was always incredibly safe. Yes, he'd add the odd nuance to Billie Jean or Dangerous but it was always the same routine every time. I think it was probably the reason why he didn't enjoy touring himself. |
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Post by russtcb on Mar 2, 2020 12:41:17 GMT
Episode 7 is out now! We're talking Parental Advisory stickers and they're effect on music listeners.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 2, 2020 15:57:34 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 2, 2020 15:57:46 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,489
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Post by TonyR on Mar 2, 2020 15:59:21 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous. Yep, a few mainstream albums managed to escape this, on the basis that whoever decides got these stickers just wasn't expecting an act like Michael or Janet to swear like that! |
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Post by russtcb on Mar 2, 2020 19:43:17 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous. We discuss this on the episode, but with the sticker being voluntary it really end up being more of a selling tool than anything. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 22:25:53 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous. We discuss this on the episode, but with the sticker being voluntary it really end up being more of a selling tool than anything. Was not aware it was voluntary. I couldn't imagine the Mechanical Animals cover without the sticker- it's one of those albums where it's part of the artwork. I think Jagged Little Pill was my first naughty album. |
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Post by respect77 on Mar 3, 2020 3:53:26 GMT
Interesting that MJ's albums never had a Parental Advisory sticker despite of some swear words on HIStory and Blood, and some erotic sounds on Dangerous. We discuss this on the episode, but with the sticker being voluntary it really end up being more of a selling tool than anything. I will listen,but I guess with some acts it's a part of being edgy to have that sticker on their album. With MJ I imagine Sony/MJ didn't want to have it for the same reason why movie distributors often fight PG ratings (more limited audience). |
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Post by russtcb on Mar 3, 2020 12:36:35 GMT
We discuss this on the episode, but with the sticker being voluntary it really end up being more of a selling tool than anything. I will listen,but I guess with some acts it's a part of being edgy to have that sticker on their album. With MJ I imagine Sony/MJ didn't want to have it for the same reason why movie distributors often fight PG ratings (more limited audience). That's probably absolutely right. I remember hearing some buzz about him saying the f word in Scream before HIStory came out, then of course I remember all of the talk about TDCAU afterwards too. I bet you're right though, they probably wanted that particular album to appeal to as many people as possible. Now that I think about it, I'm super glad the sticker is not on that cover. It's a beautiful cover IMO, and I wouldn't want that sticker looking all out of place on it. |
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Post by russtcb on Mar 5, 2020 13:44:55 GMT
The MJ Cast gave us a very nice recommendation on Twitter yesterday, which was awesome. I'm hoping everyone has enjoyed episode 7. We're recording #8 tonight and it'll be out on Monday as usual |
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