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Post by SoCav on Sept 8, 2017 22:53:30 GMT
We'll settle this one in 25 or so years, Tony!
I hope you're right, but don't think so, sadly. We'll have to wait and see.
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Post by HIStoric on Sept 8, 2017 23:40:52 GMT
I want to copy and paste something I wrote out on MJJC, just to show how lucky us MJ fans have been compared to other fanbases with posthumous material. I feel it's good for perspective.
Michael Jackson in just 8 years following his death: -A full 2-hour documentary filled to the brim with unreleased rehearsal footage + complimenting soundtrack with an unreleased song (2 mixes of it!) + unreleased demos and a spoken poem. -An album with 6 brand new songs. -A remix album in the style of The Beatles' Love, which in itself was a hugely successful project, which also offered glimpses at unreleased snippets of Michael's music. -An anniversary album offering 6 entirely new songs, a whole new live album, a concert that has been heavily demanded by fans for years, and a documentary FILLED with high definition footage of Michael Jackson working behind the scenes - something we've rarely seen! -An album with 8 brand new songs. Even though some had leaked, we were still offered 9 new mixes! -A documentary focusing on Michael's journey to Off the Wall -A themed compilation album where ~9/13 songs on there aren't well known by the general public, offering a glimpse at some fantastic somewhat unknown MJ songs.
Additionally through collaboration with other artists, we have received new extended remixes of his music: -Say Say Say with Paul McCartney, a 7 minute remix featuring new unreleased vocals from the pair. -There Must Be More To Life Than This with Freddie Mercury, an unreleased song featured on a 2014 Queen compilation.
Let's compare this to other artists shall we?
The Beatles. When they broke up in 1970, fans didn't hear any new original unreleased material until 1994/1995. That's 24 years! By comparison, if MJ fans had to wait that long, we'd have to wait until 2033 to hear anything new!
They did release a live album in 1977, however it wasn't any new original material. Finally in 1994, Live at the BBC was released which featured rarely heard material played on the radio by the Fab Four, including a great Lennon-McCartney original composition that was never properly recorded in studio. In 1995/1996, you had the huge Anthology project that allowed fans an in-depth look into demos, unreleased songs as well as 'new' songs by the group, featuring posthumous vocals by Lennon. I'd love a project like this for Michael. There have been further projects, but keep in mind how long Beatlemaniacs had to wait! Quarter of a century!
Elvis Presley. Released his last album just months before he died. Posthumously there was little new material to release. Fans got a live concert a few months after he died, but aside from that fans have mostly just released compilations in the decades following. There was a new documentary mixing real footage of Elvis with actors and what not, but yeah. He got a collectors label around the turn of the century that has been pumping out expensive releases that feature countless takes of his albums, which is great for the hardcore fans. Still, they had wait 22 years to see these sorts of releases. By comparison for Michael Jackson, we'd have to wait until 2031!
Now a days they have been generally just releasing alternative takes of original songs (and some unheard Elvis covers that they come across when doing these projects, a new unheard cover was released a month or two ago), and I believe there have been new concerts released. Once again though, had to wait a long time to see these!
John Lennon. John Lennon died just weeks after releasing his final album. He had a compilation album released in 1982, in fact this was what introduced me to his solo music. He had his first posthumous album in 1984, which featured some great songs ("Nobody Told Me" is a classic). There wasn't a great deal more of quality material though and the next posthumous album, released in 1986, was a dip in quality and as such is out of print. There was a live album released that year too. In 1988, another compilation was released to accompany a new documentary film on him, it featured an unreleased song as well as a demo of Imagine. There was a radio programme that essentially played whatever remaining from his vault that was of some quality.
From the 1990s onwards, you have the aforementioned Beatles Anthology where the remaining Beatles finished up two Lennon songs and made them into something great, and finally in 1998 there was the John Lennon anthology that featured many alternative takes of his music. Aside from that and since then, it's really just been compilation albums. So John Lennon has had a nice amount of posthumous releases, but a lot of it was released in the first 15 years after his death so there's not a great deal more to release now.
Frank Sinatra. Released his last album just years before his death. No posthumous albums, just compilation albums of mostly previously released material (some offer a new unreleased take or whatnot). There have been a good handful of live albums though. A good documentary too that eventually went onto Netflix.
Freddie Mercury/Queen. Following Freddie Mercury's death, released one final studio album in 1995. There was little new material until 2014's Queen Forever, which included 3 unreleased songs (including the Michael Jackson duet TMBMTLTT). Aside from that, it's just been compilation albums of previously released material and some live albums along with some concerts released.
Kurt Cobain/Nirvana There was really only live performance albums/shows following his suicide in 1994. His final recorded song was released on a 2002 Nirvana compilation, and some unreleased demos in a Nirvana boxset in 2005. He had a home recordings album released a year or two ago (which was scraping the barrel, in all fairness though I do enjoy one of his covers on there).
George Harrison. His final, unreleased studio album following his death. A greatest hits compilation and a compilation with unreleased demos. Aside from later Beatles releases (Love, Sgt. Peppers 50th Anniversary etc etc) that's it really.
Johnny Cash Johnny Cash has had a few compilations released since his death as well as a live album. Most notably, 3 years after he died in 2006, the first posthumous album was released. Another followed up in 2010 and an unreleased album from the 1980s was released in 2014.
David Bowie. Not completely comparable as Bowie only died 21 months ago, but their Estate has done well. They've continue released a box set series that Bowie started just before he died, they've re-printed older, rarer albums and they've also released a new live album I believe. An early version of Hunky Dory was released for RSD and they released his final songs by themselves on an EP too. Although they literally took a 2014 compilation and re-released it, exact same track listing (minus the final ~2 songs) just with a new package... which was a waste imo.
Amy Winehouse. She had a posthumous album of unreleased recordings released at the end of 2011, since then it's been pretty quiet. There was a Live at the BBC-type album in 2012, and a well-received documentary released in 2015 featuring unreleased footage, a soundtrack accompanied it with some previously released material but also some new demos. Other than that, pretty quiet.
James Brown. James Brown has really just had compilation albums since his death, as well as a live album.
In conclusion, as you can see us Michael Jackson fans have received A LOT of good quality posthumous releases in under a decade following his death, especially when compared to other artists. In fact many other artists fans would be lucky to receive this much new material in decades following their death! The Estate have been very generous and we should be grateful for what we have honestly.
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Post by respect77 on Sept 9, 2017 8:21:57 GMT
I think all of us are referring to the overall approach the Estate has taken over the past 7 years. An approach that does nothing to dispell (and often reaffirms) the all-too-frequent and false narrative that Michael was a talented and influential entertainer, but not really an artist. I don't disagree that the Estate needs to treat him like the ARTIST that he is and not just an entertainer in terms of "serious" projects that show his creative process, dispell misconceptions of him not writing or producing his music, putting out material that show him in the creative process, discuss his music in a serious and in-depth way (not just this shallow "he wanted to sell 100 million copies of Bad" way), including his 90s work as he isn't just his 80s albums and the 90s albums have even more depth to them. But if they are so scared of the controversy a serious discussion of HIStory might stir then they also have the alternative of turning attention on the hidden gems of Destiny and Triumph, accompanied by a Triumph concert or whatever. So I get what you say and I do agree that the Estate's efforts have been lacklustre in that regard which makes me wonder sometimes if they understand him as an artist or if they understand that his fan base isn't only made up of teen girls finding him cute or casual fans liking to dance to his music. But while I agree that such projects have been missing so far, that won't make me trash any other project that comes out. Fans act like they have got nothing but shit from the Estate since 2009 and it's just not true. It's not even true to the hard core fan. And like HIStoric's post shows it took other Estates of deceased artists often decades to start releasing projects that are decent. Now we use them as examples of how it is done but if we compare what Beatles fans or Elvis fans or many other fandoms got during the first decade of after an artist died/a band disbanded they acually got much less than we have so far. I also think we have to accept that MJ is dead. I sometimes feel that fans fail to realize what that means and they are demanding new, exciting projects at the rate as if he was alive. There is no new music made. The Estate only has what MJ created while he was alive which is a limited vault. We also don't know how much of it the Estate actually has. How many songs, how many are usable etc. I assume we have enough for a couple of more albums, but it is limited and I understand if the policy is not to exhaust it all in the first decade after his death. Another thing is you have to make the public hungry for it. Since MJ's death we had two albums of unreleased songs (well, minus the Cascio tracks) plus another batch on Bad25. These songs aren't really of much interest to the general public (well, unless they are contamporarized and have a current artist on them like LNFSG) - it is the same with every other artist. Casual fans and the general public look for an artist's hits, not unreleased songs or demos. So this stuff is only really interesting to hard core fans. Of course, the Estate doesn't have to always focus on commercial success. Sometimes you have to invest in the strengthening of the brand by compromizing for a less commercial but more art-focused project - and eventually that may bring benefits on the long term by bringing in more artistic respect and credit for the artist. I understand that. And I do wish the Estate did such projects too. But I still think even in case of such projects they only work if there is some level of general public/casual fan interest in it. And I feel that now, after the market has been saturated with unreleased MJ stuff (Michael, Xscape, Bad25) maybe it is a good policy if they rest unreleased material now for a while and wait for a momentum where the public might again have more interest in such things. Generally I think successfully running an Estate is a long term project and fans just don't have patience for it. They want all of his unreleased stuff NOW.
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Post by HIStoric on Sept 9, 2017 8:50:02 GMT
Great post. This part stood out to me. Sometimes I have seen fans talk about how the Estate have failed to upkeep the standard Michael Jackson had on his products (depending on the project, I mostly degree with this). I read that point again today and I realised something, how exactly can we have the high standard of Michael Jackson if he isn't here? The original demos on Xscape aren't up to Michael's standard because they are unfinished, and we have no clue if the finished contemporisations would be (likely not, even if I like most of them). Nothing more released by the Estate can be up to Michael's standard because he simply isn't here to finish it to the high standard, to give his personal finishing touch that often pushed it to the high standard we so love and crave. You know even live concerts, while we might see them as flawless and love the whole performance, maybe Michael wouldn't consider it up to his personal high standard. Does this mean the Estate shouldn't release anything? Of course they should keep releasing MJ material!! However we keep to keep things in prospective. This does not mean the Estate can be lazy and have low standards, they should keep it as high as they can, but it also means we as fans simply cannot expect projects to be at the creative quality of what Michael released when he was alive.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,450
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Post by TonyR on Sept 9, 2017 10:27:07 GMT
Great points above, that's why I rarely push for unheard stuff, if the artist didn't think it was good enough for release during their lifetime, there's normally a good reason.
Having said that, Xscape showed me that sometimes it's worth it. Plus BTM and MTS from Michael.
But almost every other track I've heard unreleased from previous years have been average at best.
i would like some great quality DVDs from Jacksons Live but even if everything stopped now I'd be happy.
Bad25 and Xscape more than fulfilled me.
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Post by SoCav on Sept 9, 2017 12:01:25 GMT
HIStoric, your comparisons with other artists seem to focus on quantity rather than quality. There is certainly no lack of quantity - I actually think the Estate has put out too much unreleased material over the past 8 years. It's the quality that is the problem. Of course it is cool that we have gotten unreleased demos, but the context in which they are released matters tremendously. Yes, we got 6 new songs on the 'Michael' album (albeit versions finished by producers to varying levels of success), but they were surrounded by 3 songs performed by a vocal impersonator (give me any other Estate that has made such a gigantic mistake). Yes, we got a number of new demos on the 'Xscape' album, but look at the context: you had to pay extra money to get them, most of them were mastered horribly, and the project focused entirely on 'contemporized' mixes by external producers who did not even listen to Michael's original work (and made fun of it afterwards, which the Estate thought would be good to release on dvd) and a hologram of Earnest Valentino.
That, to me, is an utter waste. It is exactly because there is only a finite amount of unreleased Michael Jackson material left, that you should treat each outtake as a small treasure. Give us their backstory, take us back to the time they were created and some insight into what they could have become - give each of these songs their moment in the spotlight. Don't present them as afterthoughts, badly mixed, randomly thrown together from different eras, and without context and background information. I would gladly go 20 years without the release of any new material and just repackages if it meant that Michael would get the kinds of releases he deserves by that time.
I have seen this point used against people who complain about the Estate's approach a lot. We have to accept Michael is no longer here, so releases will not be up to his standards (I know you are making a point about quantity, respect, but this is what I often see). Of course, anyone who genuinely expects posthumous releases to be as good as products Michael created while alive, is being unrealistic. But I think most fans who criticize the Estate simply want them to focus on Michael's work: demos, outtakes, alternate versions, live concerts, stories documenting the unreleased projects, etc. It is not about expecting releases to be as good as when he was here, it's about celebrating and respecting the integrity of the work he left behind.
Really, are these the people that should finally accept that Michael is dead? Or could it be the fans who want every release to set the charts on fire, even if that means ripping apart Michael's original work, so that it feels like the old days when Michael would score number one after number one? Those who are happy to accept a hologram of an impersonator, because it makes them feel like Michael is still alive for a moment? See how easily you can turn that on its head?
I think they really just don't get it. They don't see the depth there was to him and grossly underestimate what he had to offer as a songwriter. Remember what John McClain told Paul Anka when the Estate figured out he had co-written 'This Is It' with Michael? "Now we know why the song was so good..."
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Post by HIStoric on Sept 9, 2017 14:21:14 GMT
^^I responded on MJJC. Not going to copy back here in case it becomes a clone thread Reading your post here, I feel the charts thing is actually an issue with the Michael Jackson fanbase as well. I've noticed this fanbase is utterly obsessed with numbers, chart positions what-not. Every fanbase loves checking out what position a new album is on the charts, sure, but the Michael Jackson fanbase has definitely been more obsessed with it than I've seen of any other artist/band. Maybe it's because Michael was so intently focused on high numbers himself? I don't know, but I am guilty of it myself. Years ago I was obsessed with how many albums Michael sold and what not but I kicked back on it a few years ago. I feel the fanbase needs to step back a bit and stop worrying about the numbers so much. Michael's posthumous projects have commercially done alright for posthumous projects, but now I'd rather focus on quality than pulling moves just to get better commercial positioning you know? Michael Jackson's the King, we don't need another #1 album to prove it. His legacy is already cemented by the catalogue he released in his lifetime, this is just the icing on the cake. I suppose one might criticise this position I hold because I point out that I like the contemporisations many times, which many view are done just for commercial reasons. Maybe they are, but I still enjoy them from a creative standpoint and feel many (on Xscape) are quality. I don't care for chart numbers anymore, but I'm open to the idea of them if the end result is good. So I like LNFSG ft. JT, I wouldn't care if it reached #10 (which it did) or #400 because I enjoy the result at the end of the day.
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Post by respect77 on Sept 9, 2017 14:38:11 GMT
Really, are these the people that should finally accept that Michael is dead? Or could it be the fans who want every release to set the charts on fire, even if that means ripping apart Michael's original work, so that it feels like the old days when Michael would score number one after number one? Those who are happy to accept a hologram of an impersonator, because it makes them feel like Michael is still alive for a moment? See how easily you can turn that on its head? ^ I didn't like the hologram, nor do I need "contemporarized" versions of MJ's songs, nor his posthumus albums at #1, so I don't disagree with you. It's hard to disagree with the whole post too. But No, there are very different (and often contradictory) reasons why fans criticize the Estate. Often you see fans be disappointed if a project doesn't achieve the type of commercial success they want (which is #1 on the charts, selling millions copies, compete with the sales of major current artists like Beyoncรฉ and Taylor Swift etc.) AND at the same time demand that the Estate doesn't touch MJ's demos, doesn't put JT on it, doesn't contemporarize them etc. So if they put together a release that is perfect for us, hard core fans, but it fails to set the charts afire then THAT is what many fans will complain about, I am afraid. Then they will complain about the lack of commercial success and will blame it on the "lack of promotion", not realizing that such a release is unlikely to set the charts afire with any reasonable amout of promotion. Unless you can make the general public hungry and hyped enough for such a release - which isn't now IMO, but maybe in 10-20 years from now. So I think fans need to set their priorities straight. If you demand a purist approach on MJ's music by the Estate you should be content with it not setting the charts afire. And if you want chart success you should be able to accept that releasing untouched demos won't do that. But reality is that MJ fans are very different with very different priorities. You can see on MJJC that some are obsessed with chart success and only like a project if it is commercially successful. And some of them have the "anything it takes to make it commercially successful" approach too. If you have to put Justin Bieber on it, do! If you have to do a mashup with Despacito, do! Just make it successful! A lot of fans do have that mentality. I think the Estate tried to balance between those two demands with Xscape (and of course, their own priority also seems to be rather commercial success, but they also tried to cater to hard core fans with the demos) though I agree with you that the execution left a lot to be desired. I think you also have a good point re. the "context" those demos were placed in. I wasn't happy myself with the disrespecful comments by Timbaland and the fact that the Estate thought it was a good idea to leave them in a documentary about the album. I also wasn't happy that the documentary focused more on promoting these producers than promoting MJ. I never actually watched it in full it was so uninteresting to me. If they made a documentary they should have focused on the songs, their history etc. Who cares about watching Timbaland on an ego trip? I also wasn't happy with the poor mixes of the demos and I also agree that it is horrible that MJ's own Estate has so little respect for him that they think he can be replaced by cheap impersonators (hologram, Cascio songs - altough in the latter case I give them the benefit of doubt that they simply didn't hear it wasn't MJ, I am not a conspiracy theorist enough to think it was deliberate) or that amateurish production work will do on his albums (my issue with the "Michael" album isn't just the Cascio tracks but also that I think that most production work on it is just very poor, even amateurish). And yes, the Paul Anka comment was disrespectful too. I don't disagree with any of that. Maybe the Estate should hire people who actually care for MJ as an artist and leave artistic decisions to people who have a heart for MJ's art and Branca and McClain should just stick to making business decisions. But it is clear also that the Estate's own priority is commercial. They should understand though that even commercially less viable projects now that focus on presenting MJ as the serious artist that he is, even if they fail to generate money now, they may be good investment in the future by strengthening MJ's brand. So again, I don't disagree that the Estate too, not just fans, needs to change its approach in many things. I think they may be pressured by the current Sony contract to generate money and commercial success. I hope the next contract will be less pressure in that regard - also because by now Sony may let go of the idea of MJ as a major cash cow - realizing that 8-10 years after his death he isn't the same cash cow any more as he was right after his death. I am sure there will be a new contract with Sony, I just hope it will be more relaxed and would give more freedom for the Estate to not always chase commercial success with every release. Having said that, this thread is about this Scream project and I don't see any harm in this one so far and my point is just because there are some disappointment in the Estate's approach there shouldn't be a hostility to every new project right off the bat. An animated short film with MJ's music and an accompanying album? Why not? Also any criticism might even be premature as we haven't yet seen the full project unfold (Branca said there would be two other announcements shortly).
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Post by respect77 on Sept 9, 2017 14:53:41 GMT
^^I responded on MJJC. Not going to copy back here in case it becomes a clone thread Reading your post here, I feel the charts thing is actually an issue with the Michael Jackson fanbase as well. I've noticed this fanbase is utterly obsessed with numbers, chart positions what-not. Every fanbase loves checking out what position a new album is on the charts, sure, but the Michael Jackson fanbase has definitely been more obsessed with it than I've seen of any other artist/band. Maybe it's because Michael was so intently focused on high numbers himself? I don't know, but I am guilty of it myself. Years ago I was obsessed with how many albums Michael sold and what not but I kicked back on it a few years ago. I feel the fanbase needs to step back a bit and stop worrying about the numbers so much. Michael's posthumous projects have commercially done alright for posthumous projects, but now I'd rather focus on quality than pulling moves just to get better commercial positioning you know? Michael Jackson's the King, we don't need another #1 album to prove it. His legacy is already cemented by the catalogue he released in his lifetime, this is just the icing on the cake. LOL, I wrote almost the same re. the fandom's obsession with commercial success and I didn't see your post. But it is true.
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Sept 9, 2017 19:26:49 GMT
Not much in this project for me, I get why they're doing it, to make money. As a fan though it's kinda pointless.
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Post by aazzaabb on Sept 9, 2017 23:24:56 GMT
I agree with points on both sides. The estate really need to begin seeing MJ as an ARTIST at some point and presenting him in a more athouritive way. There's been more than a few missteps and they've turned him into a franchise in a way that Elvis and The Beatles would never be allowed.
Whats amusing though is the amount of fairweather fans who have crawled out of the woodwork yet again to criticise something that is merely a tie-in soundtrack to an animated special and part of a broader Halloween celebration that includes Thriller 3D and launch parties happening in 6 cities that will show Ghosts plus the 7 short-films from the Scream collection, but those peoole knew absolutely nothing about all that. They just see the announcement and jump on their smartphones.
Same with the mash-up! The mash-up is good fun, its certainly better than most of the remixes on BOTDF, Thriller25 and Bad25. All anyone is saying who has jumped on the trash-train is the same thing "its a mess!" "It's crap!" People are incapable of original thought.
This is simply the latest catylist to troll the community and rant and rave at the estate for not giving them exactly what they want and for the past mistakes. People are pouring scorn on this because its fashonable and it's the easiest thing in the world to do; those nasty, bitchy comments with zero opinion, input or perspective. Not here though. Great points made here.
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Post by HIStoric on Sept 10, 2017 3:31:49 GMT
^^Imagine how turning off all this hate is for very casual MJ fans or any of the general public who sees it.
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Post by Snow White on Sept 10, 2017 4:30:38 GMT
Guys, what more could I add of what you already said in regards of the estate's approach to the artist and the releases they decide to put together. They have made bad decisions but not all of them have been wrong, IMO.
BUT I forgot that some fans besides being anti estate/Sony extremists, they're conspiracy theorists dismissing every single mistake Branca and McClain have made, every posthumous release and the executors theemselves as frauds. UGHH, these people make the Michael Jackson fandom look bad and the reason I've been thinking of distancing myself from the forums or social media in regards of Michael but at the same time I try so hard to not let their negativity or hatred to poison me and enjoy Michael being loved, celebrated, talked about all over the world and people being interested in him for the right reasons despite acknoledging the estate's mistakes trying to remain rational.
If I can get my hands on the vinyl, I'll add it to my collection. Call me optimist but I wish Scream and the future projects to come do well and if those manage to make little childre and people in general to discover Michael and remain fans forever, I'll be happy and even more if Michael's beautiful legacy survives for certuries like the great classical composers for example.
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Post by respect77 on Sept 10, 2017 5:45:59 GMT
^^Imagine how turning off all this hate is for very casual MJ fans or any of the general public who sees it. Definitely. That's why I said IMO they are doing a lot of harm with this attitude to MJ's legacy - something they accuse the Estate of. And Snow White's comment - yes, there is a fraction of the fandom who will simply bash and trash any project just because they have an irrational hate for Branca and the Estate. But again, they aren't doing any harm to Branca. They are harming MJ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 11:32:36 GMT
I tend to be on the side of the fence that dislikes John Branca, and always hapoen to be annoyed in som way shape or form by a release (except for Bad 25 and Immortal) but I have way better things to do than to trash him on Twitter and make it my mission to dethrone him. I think the guys a smug prick, but Jesus the carry on that I see on Twitter and some fans who boycott everything Estate related just because of it. really is pathetic. I'm not too enamoured with Scream, but it's different and promotes songs that wouldn't always make a Best Of. Plus I'm a sucker for special Vinyl.
Just a shame that they appear to be using previous masters, so they will probably use everything that was used for the King of Pop project and Bad 25 etc. which are all very brickwalled and loud. Vinyl might be better.
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