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Post by ghost on Aug 24, 2021 8:44:27 GMT
Is it just me, or are a lot of fans of other artists actually quite delusional about the accomplishments of their idols? For example, I came across this tweet on my timeline:
Lets be honest, The Velvet Rope tour is not iconic. Just because something is old, it doesn't make it iconic. There are actually very few genuine moments in popular music history that are legitimately iconic. If you look up the definition of the word, it says:
In terms of music, very few artists have penetrated pop culture with something that can truly be described as "iconic." For starters, it needs to be something that is widely recognised by people everywhere, outside of the fandom. Freddie Mercury's yellow jacket and portable mic stand, Madonna's cone bra, MJ's fedora and glove and toe stand.
Even the modern attempts at being iconic seem to fall short imo. Beyonce stans seem to be the most delusional. Perhaps the closest she has come to genuinely creating a "moment" was the Single Ladies music video, but even that falls short when compared to the iconic moments of the 80s superstars.
Here's another example of stan delusions, trying to make out that something is "iconic" which the average Joe would've even know about:
I haven't seen Beyonce's Coachella performance, I'll admit that. But is it iconic, really? It might be amazing, but that doesn't make it iconic. Ghosts was amazing, the Dangerous album was amazing, but these things weren't "iconic".
I guess we all like to be on the winning team, and it's human nature to big up our idols. But at least with being an MJ fan, I don't feel like a fraud in using labels like "iconic" and "legendary", because these are just well-established facts in his career, and he has a tonne of the them, from the Smooth Criminal lean, to the moonwalk, to Motown 25, to the Thriller shortfilm, the Beat It red jacket, the Bad shortfilm. Very few artists can compete with his level of icon, but it is somewhat amusing watching delusional stans try and create "moments" that are simply not even on the radar of popular culture consciousness.
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Post by Liberian Girl on Aug 24, 2021 10:12:17 GMT
I think people definitely overuse terms like "iconic" and "legendary." Especially younger fans who apply these terms to the likes of Gaga, Beyonce, Kanye etc. Hate to sound like an old git but me growing up enjoying acts like MJ, Bowie, Queen, Madonna, Prince etc really makes most other artists pale in comparison. It doesn't mean some of these others aren't great at what they do, but to apply the term iconic or legendary to anyone you're a fan of actually makes the term limp.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Aug 24, 2021 10:17:29 GMT
I think it's about how the term is used. Coachella was iconic for Beyonce, but not necessarily outside of her world. Much like Dangerous VMA's being a classic MJ performance for MJ fans, but not for the general public.
Janet has plenty of iconic moments, for people who follow her career, but few that have resonated into the wider realm of popular culture, unlike MJ.
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Post by HIStoric on Aug 24, 2021 10:33:30 GMT
It's definitely a word that's overused (and it's not just other fandoms - I've seen some MJ fans call some of the most random stuff iconic too).
I think a lot of hardcore fans live in the bubble of fellow fans on social media, where everything their artist does is blown out of proportion. If you're a fan of Artist A and they release a new music video, it's getting millions of views, everyone in the fandom is making gifs and fancams and tweeting about it for weeks on end that it seems like a huge deal and so fans think that they're these massive worldwide events and thus worthy of the word 'iconic'. Now I don't doubt that some of these things are massively successful, but iconic? To the general pop culture? That they're very widely recognized? Usually not. I think some people also interchange the word 'iconic' with 'incredible'.
Even the modern attempts at being iconic seem to fall short imo. Beyonce stans seem to be the most delusional. Perhaps the closest she has come to genuinely creating a "moment" was the Single Ladies music video, but even that falls short when compared to the iconic moments of the 80s superstars. Here's another example of stan delusions, trying to make out that something is "iconic" which the average Joe would've even know about: I haven't seen Beyonce's Coachella performance, I'll admit that. But is it iconic, really? It might be amazing, but that doesn't make it iconic. Ghosts was amazing, the Dangerous album was amazing, but these things weren't "iconic". When someone says 'iconic', I can usually think of a visual image to go with it - and you gave many fantastic examples. As for Beyonce, I would say Single Ladies does meet the definition of being iconic. It's very well known imagery in pop culture that is widely synonymous with Beyonce and I still see it referenced to this day. Now her Coachella performance? I've seen her live, she is unquestionably a brilliant performer and I think it's safe to say that her performance there was pretty incredible from everything I heard and I certainly heard about it at the time - but iconic? Mmm I don't really think I'd push it that far. I think fans overusing the word 'iconic' is definitely a thing. It's absolutely overused in PR/marketing too, often when reissuing something for some nice boxset.
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Post by HIStoric on Aug 24, 2021 10:50:27 GMT
I think it's about how the term is used. Coachella was iconic for Beyonce, but not necessarily outside of her world. Much like Dangerous VMA's being a classic MJ performance for MJ fans, but not for the general public. Janet has plenty of iconic moments, for people who follow her career, but few that have resonated into the wider realm of popular culture, unlike MJ. That's a pretty interesting argument actually, context and all... Tbh in those situations I'd probably revert to a term like 'classic'. I feel it might help avoid any confusion brought on.
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Aug 25, 2021 0:53:02 GMT
I think it's just fans appreciating stuff they like and isn't to be taken as literally as some here seem to be taking it lol.
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Post by ghost on Aug 25, 2021 16:05:06 GMT
It's definitely a word that's overused (and it's not just other fandoms - I've seen some MJ fans call some of the most random stuff iconic too).
I think a lot of hardcore fans live in the bubble of fellow fans on social media, where everything their artist does is blown out of proportion. If you're a fan of Artist A and they release a new music video, it's getting millions of views, everyone in the fandom is making gifs and fancams and tweeting about it for weeks on end that it seems like a huge deal and so fans think that they're these massive worldwide events and thus worthy of the word 'iconic'. Now I don't doubt that some of these things are massively successful, but iconic? To the general pop culture? That they're very widely recognized? Usually not. I think some people also interchange the word 'iconic' with 'incredible'.
Even the modern attempts at being iconic seem to fall short imo. Beyonce stans seem to be the most delusional. Perhaps the closest she has come to genuinely creating a "moment" was the Single Ladies music video, but even that falls short when compared to the iconic moments of the 80s superstars. Here's another example of stan delusions, trying to make out that something is "iconic" which the average Joe would've even know about: I haven't seen Beyonce's Coachella performance, I'll admit that. But is it iconic, really? It might be amazing, but that doesn't make it iconic. Ghosts was amazing, the Dangerous album was amazing, but these things weren't "iconic". When someone says 'iconic', I can usually think of a visual image to go with it - and you gave many fantastic examples. As for Beyonce, I would say Single Ladies does meet the definition of being iconic. It's very well known imagery in pop culture that is widely synonymous with Beyonce and I still see it referenced to this day. Now her Coachella performance? I've seen her live, she is unquestionably a brilliant performer and I think it's safe to say that her performance there was pretty incredible from everything I heard and I certainly heard about it at the time - but iconic? Mmm I don't really think I'd push it that far. I think fans overusing the word 'iconic' is definitely a thing. It's absolutely overused in PR/marketing too, often when reissuing something for some nice boxset. Yes, "iconic" is a big word and definitely should mean that whatever it is you are lauding as such should, at the very least, be widely known. The truth is with Janet, even though Rhythm Nation is seen as kind of iconic, very few people in European countries would know the song or the video. Maybe MJ/JJ fans or people who followed 80s/90s popstars closely, but the wider general public wouldn't have a clue about that song or video. And that's arguably her most iconic moment. Same for Beyonce really. Outside of Single Ladies, I don't think there'd be one music video or career moment that people who didn't follow music closely would know about. MJ and Madonna's most iconic moments are known by EVERYONE, regardless of whether they followed their careers or not.
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Post by MattyJam on Aug 26, 2021 5:24:13 GMT
It's definitely a word that's overused (and it's not just other fandoms - I've seen some MJ fans call some of the most random stuff iconic too).
I think a lot of hardcore fans live in the bubble of fellow fans on social media, where everything their artist does is blown out of proportion. If you're a fan of Artist A and they release a new music video, it's getting millions of views, everyone in the fandom is making gifs and fancams and tweeting about it for weeks on end that it seems like a huge deal and so fans think that they're these massive worldwide events and thus worthy of the word 'iconic'. Now I don't doubt that some of these things are massively successful, but iconic? To the general pop culture? That they're very widely recognized? Usually not. I think some people also interchange the word 'iconic' with 'incredible'.
When someone says 'iconic', I can usually think of a visual image to go with it - and you gave many fantastic examples. As for Beyonce, I would say Single Ladies does meet the definition of being iconic. It's very well known imagery in pop culture that is widely synonymous with Beyonce and I still see it referenced to this day. Now her Coachella performance? I've seen her live, she is unquestionably a brilliant performer and I think it's safe to say that her performance there was pretty incredible from everything I heard and I certainly heard about it at the time - but iconic? Mmm I don't really think I'd push it that far.
I think fans overusing the word 'iconic' is definitely a thing. It's absolutely overused in PR/marketing too, often when reissuing something for some nice boxset. Yes, "iconic" is a big word and definitely should mean that whatever it is you are lauding as such should, at the very least, be widely known. The truth is with Janet, even though Rhythm Nation is seen as kind of iconic, very few people in European countries would know the song or the video. Maybe MJ/JJ fans or people who followed 80s/90s popstars closely, but the wider general public wouldn't have a clue about that song or video. And that's arguably her most iconic moment.Β Same for Beyonce really. Outside of Single Ladies, I don't think there'd be one music video or career moment that people who didn't follow music closely would know about. MJ and Madonna's most iconic moments are known by EVERYONE, regardless of whether they followed their careers or not. I know you're a huge fan, but I wouldn't put Madonna in the same league as MJ in terms of iconic moments. I'll give you the cone bra I guess, but if we're talking about pop music moments that are instantly-recognisable to people of all demographics all over the world, I would argue that even Madonna hasn't achieved that. I don't say that to belittle Madonna, who has undoubtedly created many iconic moments in the realm of pop music. But I'm not sure she's done anything as universally recognisable as the Elvis jumpsuit and quiff, the MJ fedora and glove, the Thriller video, The Beatles mophead haircuts, Abbey Road cover etc?
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Aug 26, 2021 6:56:22 GMT
Yes, "iconic" is a big word and definitely should mean that whatever it is you are lauding as such should, at the very least, be widely known. The truth is with Janet, even though Rhythm Nation is seen as kind of iconic, very few people in European countries would know the song or the video. Maybe MJ/JJ fans or people who followed 80s/90s popstars closely, but the wider general public wouldn't have a clue about that song or video. And that's arguably her most iconic moment.Β Same for Beyonce really. Outside of Single Ladies, I don't think there'd be one music video or career moment that people who didn't follow music closely would know about. MJ and Madonna's most iconic moments are known by EVERYONE, regardless of whether they followed their careers or not. I know you're a huge fan, but I wouldn't put Madonna in the same league as MJ in terms of iconic moments. I'll give you the cone bra I guess, but if we're talking about pop music moments that are instantly-recognisable to people of all demographics all over the world, I would argue that even Madonna hasn't achieved that. I don't say that to belittle Madonna, who has undoubtedly created many iconic moments in the realm of pop music. But I'm not sure she's done anything as universally recognisable as the Elvis jumpsuit and quiff, the MJ fedora and glove, the Thriller video, The Beatles mophead haircuts, Abbey Road cover etc? As well as the cone bra... The Like A Virgin wedding dress The Material Girl video Plus possibily the Like A Prayer burning cross video and Vogue. Trying to be objective, any maybe not on the same fedora level of iconic, I'd argue the above all still were. I think the images would be recognisable to most people around the world.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 27, 2021 5:51:49 GMT
Yes, definitely the words "iconic" and "legendary" are overused by fandoms on social media. MJ had definitely a lot of iconic and legendary moments, outfits, artistic outputs that everyone can identify. I mean you can put just a silhouette of certain MJ moves in front of people and they immediately know who and what it is. You can show them a jacket and they will immediately name the video it's from. Show them a dance move and they know it's an "MJ dance move". Things like that are the signs of being iconic.
But yes, I often see that word used in contexts that doesn't feel justified. Where it's just fandoms trying to hype up their fave. If I think of Janet, I'm not sure I would really find anything in her career that's truly iconic. Definitely not the Velvet Rope tour. (It doesn't mean it couldn't be great. But iconic? How?) I think being iconic is also related to some level of fame. I mean iconic is heavily related to being recognized and remembered by a lot of people, even "people on the street", not just your own hard core fandom. The most iconic Janet moment in that way is probably not the thing she would like to be remembered for: ie the Super Bowl fiasco.
Beyonce fans are also notorious for calling her every move "iconic" and "legendary". No, I don't think Formation is iconic. No, I don't think "Black is King" is iconic. No, I don't think Lemonade is legendary or iconic. An iconic album is something like Thriller or Dark Side of the Moon or Abbey Road, something that charts even decades after its release. None of Beyonce's albums is in that league.
Not only fandoms, but the media is also guilty of this. Do you remember the Channel Orange album by Frank Ocean? This stuck in my mind because I found it so ridiculous that when it came out the media called it "an instant classic". I was like, it's not up to you to decide what's a classic. It will be decided by the audience and time. And sure enough, no one checks for Channel Orange any more. It's definitely not considered one of the big classic albums.
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Post by HIStoric on Aug 27, 2021 6:11:25 GMT
Not only fandoms, but the media is also guilty of this. Do you remember the Channel Orange album by Frank Ocean? This stuck in my mind because I found it so ridiculous that when it came out the media called it "an instant classic". I was like, it's not up to you to decide what's a classic. It will be decided by the audience and time. And sure enough, no one checks for Channel Orange any more. It's definitely not considered one of the big classic albums. I sure do actually, that's one of my most favourite and most played albums of the early 2010s! I personally would call it a classic album because I genuinely think it's absolutely fantastic from start to finish, and on an anecdotal level I do have coworkers/friends who also share similar praises for the album.
Now I'm certainly not arguing it's an 'iconic' album by any stretch of an imagination (in fact Ocean's follow-up album Blonde is the one that by far gets more attention from the general public), and you certainly make a good point that the media jumping into calling something an 'instant classic' is a risky game because who knows how well it will hold up. Speaking about channel ORANGE specifically, however, I think it has held up pretty well for an album by a artist that wasn't very well known at the time, and it's evidently still considered a classic by many for the 2010s.
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Post by respect77 on Aug 27, 2021 6:47:32 GMT
I acknowledge that classic is different than iconic. Something can be a classic without having a high level of recognizability, let's say an obscure album from the 80s can be a classic today in certain circles without the "average dude on the street" really recognizing it, while you can't really have "iconic" or "legendary" without that element. Still I think whether something is truly a classic you won't know until a few decades after it was released, so I find such descriptions of a brand new album hyperbolic.
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