TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Nov 24, 2021 9:26:48 GMT
You know, we talk about how MJ was shat on by a great height by the press, and he was, possibly the most disrespected star ever...but Madonna has so much disrespect. And bearing in mind none of that comes from a place where Michael's did. It's incredibly unfair. When I see how Gaga, Swift, Adele are all lauded - heck even Rhianna, who seems nice enough but for the life of me I can't see where the talent lies. But Madonna gets zilch. Even though she's never played it safe, she constantly evolves rather than release the same album each time (see Adele thread ). I mean you may laugh at the comparison, but the sort of stuff people hail Bowie for - changing styles, look, experimentation etc. Yes, she's used sex to sell (like most artists), but the quality of the music has been there also. And the sort of stuff Madonna has done, is nothing to the overt & cringeworthy things you see now (WAP anyone??!!) (<- That's not an offer by the way). Jimmy Kimmel asked her on a recent interview if she got pissed off when she saw other artists get praised for doing things that Madonna had already done but not as well, and I think it's a fair question. Madonna definitely suffers from having lasted. You get so much more respect if you die early when there's no time to release music that will never sell as well as your heyday or be as well received. Josh Widdecombe did a great piece on this in regards to Paul McCartney when we was on Room 101 that HIStoric may like As Madonna said herself, 'the most controversial thing I've done is stick around'.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 25, 2021 12:03:28 GMT
I think a lot of MJ fans don't really want to consider other cases for fear part of their brief system in relation to MJ the media will be undermined.
What it really amounts to is what Deborah Tannen called "The Argument Culture" for which the origin of scrutinising media coverage has its roots not in the United Kingdom, but in the United States of America itself. Specifically, Watergate which is the event that changed traditional media from a poodle into a guard dog.
Anyway Janet Jackson and Britney Spears are two other examples to add.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Nov 25, 2021 12:13:57 GMT
Not sure I'd add Britney. I mean she's had some great singles and a good performer but I see her as pretty much a good looking puppet. That's probably unfair and her fans would disagree but I don't see the songwriting, production amd creative skills that certain other female music stars have.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 12:24:08 GMT
Not sure I'd add Britney. I mean she's had some great singles and a good performer but I see her as pretty much a good looking puppet. That's probably unfair and her fans would disagree but I don't see the songwriting, production amd creative skills that certain other female music stars have. OP of the thread, ladies and gentlemen.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Nov 25, 2021 12:26:56 GMT
Not sure I'd add Britney. I mean she's had some great singles and a good performer but I see her as pretty much a good looking puppet. That's probably unfair and her fans would disagree but I don't see the songwriting, production amd creative skills that certain other female music stars have. OP of the thread, ladies and gentlemen. OP means opinion? Well obviously, all posts are opinions. E.g. BOTDF is MJ'S best song. I guess all fans think their favourite never gets the respect they deserve. Unless they are lucky enough to be a Beatles or Bowie fan.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 12:30:06 GMT
OP of the thread, ladies and gentlemen. OP means opinion? Well obviously, all posts are opinions. E.g. BOTDF is MJ'S best song. I guess all fans think their favourite never gets the respect they deserve. Unless they are lucky enough to be a Beatles or Bowie fan. Original poster. Just funny that you used such a disrespectful comment in a thread about disrespected artists.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 25, 2021 12:49:51 GMT
Not sure I'd add Britney. I mean she's had some great singles and a good performer but I see her as pretty much a good looking puppet. That's probably unfair and her fans would disagree but I don't see the songwriting, production amd creative skills that certain other female music stars have. The thread starts with "shat on by a great height by the press", so it's really about media attitudes towards stars and less about recognition of their successes. Janet and Britney fit that bill.....
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Post by HIStoric on Nov 25, 2021 12:50:19 GMT
Not sure I'd add Britney. I mean she's had some great singles and a good performer but I see her as pretty much a good looking puppet. That's probably unfair and her fans would disagree but I don't see the songwriting, production amd creative skills that certain other female music stars have. Britney is doing fine now especially after the whole conservatorship ordeal, but you can’t not add Britney Spears after the huge amount of shit she went through from the media in the mid-2000s. That was absolute madness and it’s no wonder she had her mental breakdown (which then led to said conservatorship).
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Post by aazzaabb on Nov 25, 2021 12:53:20 GMT
To be honest with you there isn’t an Artist I enjoy who isn’t disrespected. Even the Beatles! I always see “the most overrated” that their “thieves of black music” and all sorts of remarks. Then theirs the in house politics of Paul V John and who broke them up and of course there’s Yoko!
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Nov 25, 2021 12:53:42 GMT
OP means opinion? Well obviously, all posts are opinions. E.g. BOTDF is MJ'S best song. I guess all fans think their favourite never gets the respect they deserve. Unless they are lucky enough to be a Beatles or Bowie fan. Original poster. Just funny that you used such a disrespectful comment in a thread about disrespected artists. Yeah, fair point, well made.
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Post by MattyJam on Nov 25, 2021 12:58:11 GMT
Well Tony, I think you have to be honest with yourself as a Madonna fan, and admit that she really hasn't done herself any favours.
You must have a short memory, because Madonna was WORSHIPPED by the music press for YEARS, around the time of ROL, Music etc she could do no wrong. Even AL was critically lauded at the time and the narrative only changed once the album underperformed. Confessions and Madame X also were met with universal praise by most music critics.
But I saw her getting her ass out again on Instagram this morning, and she undermines herself constantly, in terms of being viewed as a serious artist. I know she's always got off on liking to shock people, or going against the grain of what society expects from a woman of a certain age. But the truth is, about 20 years ago she was probably the most celebrated and revered popstar on the planet, and she's kind of gone out of her way to piss all that down the drain.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Nov 25, 2021 12:58:29 GMT
Ok. I'll take HIStoric and pg13 points on Britney. But in the context of my OP (original post), I meant real genre and generation defining artists not getting their just deserts. No doubt Britney has been shat on but I mean from a talent and achievement perspective really. My point is why are Beyonce and Gaga figuratively sucked off when it's okay to mock Madonna? Read same for Prince/MJ
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Post by HIStoric on Nov 25, 2021 13:13:10 GMT
Josh Widdecombe did a great piece on this in regards to Paul McCartney when we was on Room 101 that HIStoric may like As Madonna said herself, 'the most controversial thing I've done is stick around'. Haha that was pretty funny 😂 TBH I never really get a sense of disrespect towards McCartney, at least from the media these days anyway. There’s always the joke about his new stuff being shit, but I kind of just put it down to a) the joke of a legacy artists new work never being as good as their classics and b) well, you’re comparing it to some of the highest regarded popular music there is, which ultimately he still help make. I kind of see it the same way of people try to compare Invincible to Thriller and say it wasn’t that good. Yeah maybe, but he still made Thriller! And that’s good enough in my books. Macca was definitely treated worst post-Beatles in the 70s and 80s than he is now, with the break-up of the Beatles, his solo career/Wings and the murder of John. Generally any disrespect I see is on something like Twitter where someone just doesn’t like or care for his work (perfectly fine) or they spout off something that’s clearly ignorant of their talent or influence, blows something out of proportion or is even just plain ignorant of history that kinda makes you roll your eyes. But it is what it is, and I’m very mindful that he has it well and it could definitely be worse. And like aazzaabb says, I don’t think you could be that big without some of it anyway. I think all things considered, they generally have it good so I try to be mindful of that and appreciate it for what I can.
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Post by HIStoric on Nov 25, 2021 13:25:58 GMT
My point is why are Beyonce and Gaga figuratively sucked off when it's okay to mock Madonna? Madonna helped break down the barriers of female sexuality and expression in popular music back in the 1980s, so it’s no wonder she faced a good bit of backlash. By the time Beyoncé and Gaga rolled up in the late 90s and late 2000s respectively, those walls had been knocked down a bit, so them being half naked on stage wasn’t so controversial. I’m not saying it’s all fine and dandy now sexism wise since all three of them are still activists in that area, but Madonna did help a lot back in the day. I think they both still get shit for other areas they might campaign in on too, like racial equality and LGBTQ rights. In 2021, the media supports them more for it than they used to a while back, but it can be more controversial in the general public. Back to Madonna, at least now a days, there’s definitely some ageism in there too. Madonna still acts and dresses like she’s 20 when she’s old enough to be some peoples grandmother now, which probably turns off people as they’re used to most artists taking it down a bit by that age. I think there’s probably a good few other things though which others who are more familiar with Madonna can expand on, but I guess that’s what I’ve noticed.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
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Post by TonyR on Nov 25, 2021 13:39:46 GMT
Well Tony, I think you have to be honest with yourself as a Madonna fan, and admit that she really hasn't done herself any favours. You must have a short memory, because Madonna was WORSHIPPED by the music press for YEARS, around the time of ROL, Music etc she could do no wrong. Even AL was critically lauded at the time and the narrative only changed once the album underperformed. Confessions and Madame X also were met with universal praise by most music critics. But I saw her getting her ass out again on Instagram this morning, and she undermines herself constantly, in terms of being viewed as a serious artist. I know she's always got off on liking to shock people, or going against the grain of what society expects from a woman of a certain age. But the truth is, about 20 years ago she was probably the most celebrated and revered popstar on the planet, and she's kind of gone out of her way to piss all that down the drain. Oh yeah. I know she doesn't help herself. Everytime I see Kylie interviewed for example I think 'why can't Madonna come across like that?'. She's still got that horrible defensive wall that comes across. I know it stems from losing her Mother at an early age, from all the shit she's had to deal with and she never would have survived without being so strong and defensive but a lot of the time she doesn't always seem that likeable. Ray of Light aside, I'm sorry, but I rarely remember her, like MJ, being loved post her 80s and early 90s heyday. Erotica onwards, she's been constantly trashed. Occasionally there's been a glimpse of respect (RoL, Evita) but not much. Putting Madonna to one side, I'll never get why some artists are 'okay or cool to like but others have to be a so called Guilty Pleasure. Now, I'm older I'm happy to be quite honest and say I've got S Club 7, next to Marvin Gaye on a playlist and Billie Piper next to Suede. Having longevity really doesn't help an artist sometimes. Going back to Madonna (sorry, got a bee in my bonnet at the moment!), but even of you didn't like her latest works, she's totally avoided doing the usual legacy artist stuff of Great American Songbook/Vegas/Duets/covers etc.. etc
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