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Post by mistermaxxx08 on Sept 24, 2017 20:49:34 GMT
obviously "Why you wanna trip on me"
obviously the dangerous album was a very Pro Black based album
and the imagery and the feelings from the "Back or white" video
spoke for itself.
then obviously the "History" album
they don't care about us
this time around
was there a divide from MJ speaking on race and bringing it to the forefront?
i have seen some interesting debates.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Sept 24, 2017 21:07:40 GMT
One thing I don't understand is how MJ could make a song like Black Or White and not talk about his skin disease until 1993. I'm sure people must have thought that he's a big hypocrite. What were peoples' reactions?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 21:36:17 GMT
Not at all, Michael was merely singing from his experiences of being a Black man in America and as being a celebrity. Despite the vitiligo and the surgeries, Michael was still African American at the end of the day and he never forgot that. He was proud to be black.
Those songs were meant to inform and entertain, not offend people. I can these this thread going for days and on any other boards, moderators getting ready to pounce on any misinterpreted remark that even remotely suggests racial thinking.
To me skin colour is not all of a persons cultural identity, I believe strongly that he had vitiligo and the surgery was so he could not look like Joseph his father, whom he detested. But underneath this was still Michael Jackson, a proud African American man who knew himself and his cultural identity. If he was so ashamed to be black, why did he go to Africa a lot and talk about his people, call out Sony for its racism against Black Artists and go to many Black events, or be proclaimed as a legend many times by NAACP and other Black Political and Cultural Organisations, loyalty to the UNCF (United Negro College Fund), and despite his global success, most of his music and sound was deeply rooted in the African American sound, the dance, pop and seamless R & B is completely Black.
Seriously let us cut the brother some slack. I love the fact he was so pro black and proud. Just because his skin turned white, his soul and his heart never did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 21:41:59 GMT
Generally its the non fans and his detractors that call him out over this stuff.
Most do not know his music beyond the big chart hits and merely judged him by looking at post 1980s pictures of him. Had they dug deeper, they would see he was not a sell out.
Yes the plastic surgery got out of hand, but not because he wanted to be white, he had a serious inferiority complex about his looks, and possibly delusions bought on the Pepsi incident.
Even Prince got the same crap, usually from people like Chuck D and all these had core gangsta rap guys who saw men like MJ and Price as effeminate wannabe white sissies pandering to white folks and gays. The fact Prince rocked a huge afro wig in his last years of life and wrote many songs about black rights struggles (Baltimore, We March, Race, Dear Mr Man) meant nothing to these angry Sista Souljah, Kamau Kambon (The dude who wanted to kill all white people), Amiru Bushrakah and H. Rap Brown types.
Now I said my piece, trying to get to 100 posts to lose the Junior part of member status.
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Post by mistermaxxx08 on Sept 24, 2017 23:38:04 GMT
One thing I don't understand is how MJ could make a song like Black Or White and not talk about his skin disease until 1993. I'm sure people must have thought that he's a big hypocrite. What were peoples' reactions? you nailed it and when Jermaine Jackson came out with "Word to the Badd" it attacked alot of things. people around the way thought MJ was turning white and came after his skin and his hair. folks loved his talent and music, however some weren't feeling like they could relate to him, black or white was a political message and the video was arugably the first time he truly went there hardcore about how he felt as a Black Man in America. great question.
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Post by mistermaxxx08 on Sept 24, 2017 23:40:02 GMT
Generally its the non fans and his detractors that call him out over this stuff. Most do not know his music beyond the big chart hits and merely judged him by looking at post 1980s pictures of him. Had they dug deeper, they would see he was not a sell out. Yes the plastic surgery got out of hand, but not because he wanted to be white, he had a serious inferiority complex about his looks, and possibly delusions bought on the Pepsi incident. Even Prince got the same crap, usually from people like Chuck D and all these had core gangsta rap guys who saw men like MJ and Price as effeminate wannabe white sissies pandering to white folks and gays. The fact Prince rocked a huge afro wig in his last years of life and wrote many songs about black rights struggles (Baltimore, We March, Race, Dear Mr Man) meant nothing to these angry Sista Souljah, Kamau Kambon (The dude who wanted to kill all white people), Amiru Bushrakah and H. Rap Brown types. Now I said my piece, trying to get to 100 posts to lose the Junior part of member status.
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Post by mistermaxxx08 on Sept 24, 2017 23:44:32 GMT
Generally its the non fans and his detractors that call him out over this stuff. Most do not know his music beyond the big chart hits and merely judged him by looking at post 1980s pictures of him. Had they dug deeper, they would see he was not a sell out. Yes the plastic surgery got out of hand, but not because he wanted to be white, he had a serious inferiority complex about his looks, and possibly delusions bought on the Pepsi incident. Even Prince got the same crap, usually from people like Chuck D and all these had core gangsta rap guys who saw men like MJ and Price as effeminate wannabe white sissies pandering to white folks and gays. The fact Prince rocked a huge afro wig in his last years of life and wrote many songs about black rights struggles (Baltimore, We March, Race, Dear Mr Man) meant nothing to these angry Sista Souljah, Kamau Kambon (The dude who wanted to kill all white people), Amiru Bushrakah and H. Rap Brown types. Now I said my piece, trying to get to 100 posts to lose the Junior part of member status. MJ Prince, Lionel, Whitney faced a Backlash within Black folks for not hiring more Black folks in position of Power. also musically when rap came up mainstream alot of black acts back then were too pop sounding. bottom line it felt like black acts were going out of there way at cross over. if your'e work is good you never have to cross over. also the music industry with there racist agenda and media would have one black Major act at a time.pitting one against another. what alot of folks back then might not have known is how racist radio was back then. that was a different era
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 1:01:27 GMT
But at the same time, I think that artists like Michael Jackson, Prince, Lionel Richie, Diana Ross, Stevie Wonder, TTD, Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey were instrumental in breaking down barriers, as there were isolated Black artists making waves in pop before, but these people all built careers out of music and their appeal was global rather than just restricted to the Black audience with only a few non blacks.
Why would behind the scenes people's races be important, okay MJ's managers and lawyers were mostly white, but early on Joseph was manager and I am sure he chose people as they were the best in their fields rather than race. Unfortunately before the 1990s, there were not too many Black people in those jobs (This can be blamed on government and institutional racism rather than any just limited to the musical industry).
Whitney was completely controlled by Clive Davis, so no point there.
Lionel Richie was at Motown which was a black company with mostly Black executives, so no argument there.
Prince may have had White management and a mostly white band to 1987, but after that his NPG group was mostly Black and a few Hispanic, also Prince engaged Londell McMillan as his lawyer in the 1990s who I believe is Black. Also in the 2000s and 2010s most of his office staff and managers were black, replacing mostly white staff members from the 1990s.
Also these black people who criticised these artists for being too poppy and white, well no comment as they are being racist by suggesting that black people listen to one type of music only and whites another form of music. Prince said it best when he said in 1979 "I chose a mixed band as most black people I know play only one type of music, and I want to play all types of music". Michael felt the same, he chose the most talented players for his music mostly as it suited the sound and the feel, but at least until the Jordy Chandler era, MJ was completely in control.
I am sorry to say that there are many rappers (Well to me shit hoppers, as rap is not music, it is talking shit to a drum machine beat) and so called R and B artists who think that Blacks may only perform, Rap, Soul, R and B, or Jazz and performing pop, rock or poppy dance music is selling out to whites. That to me is much more racist than anyone black who plays pop music. It is also stupid considering nearly all of these Black Pop artists (But especially Michael and Prince) have incorporated Rap, Jazz and Soul into their music. Plus most of these artists are known for the fact their music is mostly R and B. I for one do not think they sound white, if anything it is their roots in the African American musical tradition that makes their sound so satisfying and fulfilling.
This cultural imperialism needs to stop and besides I think shit hop with its lack of musical talent, lyrics about shooting people, glorifying crime, drugs, degrading women and talking shit is much more destructive than pop music is to black people.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Sept 25, 2017 4:57:58 GMT
^^^Of course I don't believe that MJ hated to be black, and he had Vitiligo, that's a fact. But you have to admit that it must have been very confusing for many people when Black Or White came out. We have a man who has surgery and "turns white" and he's singing that your skin colour doesn't matter. This is something that has to be explained to the public, otherwhise most people won't get the message. I'm glad MJ cleared things up in the Oprah interview but it was pretty late. I know it's something personal, but how many black people (and of course all the other fans) were offended or couldn't relate to MJ anymore?
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Post by respect77 on Sept 25, 2017 5:20:37 GMT
I think a lot of people misunderstand MJ's plastic surgery. I am not talking about his skin and vitiligo here, but about the surgeries, because often you will see people say "OK he had vitiligo, but that didn't mean he had to earse his black features". Meaning the nose, I guess, because I don't think there was any other typically "black feature" he earsed. However, I don't think to MJ it was a matter of "black features" or "white features". It was simply that he didn't want to look like Joseph (like he says on the Glenda tapes) and I think he was also reacting to his family's mocking of his "big nose". I think there lies the misunderstanding when people interpret is as him not wanting to be black. I think it was a more complicated psychological issue that had to do with his father, family's mockings and not a racial issue.
Besides, a lot of black artists had nose jobs (or white artists for that matter). It is true that smaller nose is considered more desirable than a bigger or wider nose in Hollywood comes from white beauty standards, but it is not like only black people have naturally big noses and have had their nose done to fit in in the entertainment world. Same with the straight hair. How many black artists straighten their hair? Hell, Beyonce wears her hair blonde and she is considered some kind of icon of black female empowerment.
As for hip-hop, I don't think the music is necessarily trash, I think there are good hip-hop songs, but I think it became an increasingly negative influence. I can't see how singing about violence, boasting about material assets (cars, money etc.) or degrading women as "hoes" is empowering and positive to the black community. I really can't. So I am not sure if I care if some gangsta rapper who glorifies those things considers MJ's lot more positive message a "sell-out".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 5:44:00 GMT
Wow respect77 you talk so much better here than on MJJC. I agree with your remarks, Michael always had a thing about his nose and he was scared and angry with Joseph.
All of the Siblings got names, like Marlon got teased for having the biggest lips in the family, but he never did anything to them, he accepted them. Tito always had a hang up about his size and was worried he was too fat and under pressure to lose weight all the time, although if you asked me, he just had a broad head and a large frame like Jackie, he never looked "fat". I say this as every reads these tales about the brothers teasing each other and making jokes, especially on tour, and maybe the others saw it as fun, but Michael must have taken the remarks about his nose seriously. Michael and Marlon were always very close and I know he was always teasing Marlon about his lips and Marlon would have responded back about his nose.
After all these boys were stuck together as the group from 1964 pretty much to 1984 and to keep their sanity they needed this light hearted ribbing and fun. They did not get the chance to socialise much with other people beyond family, musicians and music company executives. Okay the older brothers got to have sex with occasional fans and groupies and then married young, but normal friendships were out of the question.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Sept 25, 2017 6:48:16 GMT
One thing I don't understand is how MJ could make a song like Black Or White and not talk about his skin disease until 1993. I'm sure people must have thought that he's a big hypocrite. What were peoples' reactions? Looking back, I can't believe there wasn't much more of an outcry over his apprearance, as in hindsight there was a dramatic difference in between Thriller & Bad and again between Bad & Dangerous. It's very clear when you watch something like the Retrospective on Moonwalker.
At the time though, I don't remember that much about it. Yes there were always questions over the nose but that's a common thing to have one or two nose jobs in Hollywood, it was only late 90s when it became a big issue when there wasn't much nose left. Regarding skin colour, there were questions but I think people didn't really think that skin lightening existed so weren't sure what to think.
It's okay for fans to be all 'holier than though' in hindsight and say people were ignorant and the man had vitiligo, but we didn't know that or had even heard of it then. Even in the Oprah interview he didn't even mention it by name, so there wasn't much of a counter argument when people did acuse him of wanting to be white.
Up until mid nineties (I think exacerbated by the allegations) his transformation was gradual so a bit like someone losing 100 pounds on weight over 7 years, you knew something was happening but couldn't quite put your finger on it. You could tell yourself it was just growing up, change of diet etc.
What does amaze me even now though, is how much his appearance changed in a very small space of time between 1990-1991. If you look at MJ in 1990, Oscars with Madonna or the pre-Dangerous photo shoots, he is pretty much the same as Bad MJ just with longer hair. Then in the video for BoW he is very much lighter and differences to nose and possibly lips.
I mean, I love the guy so whatever made him happy (if it did), it just saddens me as the surgery & vitiligo combined was one of the reasons for his downfall in my opinion and it definitey made the allegations easier to believe as between appearance changes & the other 'wacko' rumours he was already seen as different.
But different is good . Who wants to be the same as everyone else? I certainly don't want that in my heroes. If I wanted that I'd follow Ed Sheeran.
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milo
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Post by milo on Sept 25, 2017 7:20:32 GMT
Black or white is a song that is often interpreted as Michael preaching about being "color blind". I've seen plenty of negative comments from some black fans about this song, but when you analyze the lyrics, you can see it's not the main message of the song. Some white fans quickly quote the song when they want to defend themselves of being criticized about some racist comment they made about Michael. In my opinion, there's a difference of how fans interpret those "race based songs" depending on their own race.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 10:31:22 GMT
I actually think he still looked a little African American in 1991 and on the Black or White video. Even in 1992, there is still a slight bit of colour, not until 1993 does he look to me fully Caucasian. Also you need to realise, he always wore long pants and sleeves, he rubbed the creams on his face and hands only, his body underneath was covered in splotches of white skin on his copper brown colour (He was never Black, black) and was more brownish given the Jacksons like most African Americans probably had about 25% European DNA in them from the slave days. There are stories that Samuel Jackson (Joseph's father) father (Walter Jackson) or Grandfather (Alfred J Jackson) was white and Crystal Lee King had a half white father. Slavery lead to this dynamic and Jim Crow laws ensured that anyone with any Black blood was labelled as Black and treated as such, so people 3/4 or more white were living in exclusively black circles and thus mixing bloodlines. The case of Prince was more so as both of his parents were very fair (50% or more white, but identified as black).
Like Prince, Michael's Parents were descended from Southern Blacks who came north between 1915 and 1950 to escape Jim Crow racism in the south. The Jackson family were from Arkansas and the Scruse family (Katherine's) from Georgia. Katherine's grandfather was actually called Prince Screws, but out of dignity changed the name to Scruse, and her father was also called Prince Scruse. That is where Michael got the name Prince from, not the musician. Prince was a very common name in the Black community.
The autopsy photos also showed his torso was clearly covered in blotches and he had vitiligo, which started around 1983 and by 1986 was well set in, at this time his surgeons and doctors recommended he use creams to cover the blotches on his face and hands. This I support given he had enough crap to deal with, in the media.
The nose went too far, but with his lips, he never thinned them, Michael never had particularly large or everted lips like Marlon and Jackie did. The full lips came from Katherine, as Joseph's lips were quite thin by African standards. If anything after 2000, Michael started plumping his lips with injections of collagen and looking at post 2005 trial photos, Michaels lips look unaturally thick and larger than they were in the 1990s.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Sept 25, 2017 10:55:40 GMT
How I wish MJ had spoken about his vitiligo earlier. I understand why he didn't, but it would have saved him a lot of grief and it would also have helped other people with the condition.
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