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Post by electriceyes on Oct 1, 2023 8:27:48 GMT
I know MJ said he felt betrayed by Bashir and a lot of fans and supporters said they felt that the way Bashir edited the documentary was unfair to Michael. But am I the only one that doesn't see it? At the end of the day, it was the things MJ said and did on camera that caused the most controversy - if he had behaved more rationally throughout the interviews then there wouldn't have been a problem. It was MJ who agreed to cuddle and hold hands with Gavin, it was MJ who insisted on defending the bed sharing etc and seemed erratic feeding Blanket the bottle with that stupid veil on his head achieving exactly nothing. If he hadn't behaved in this way, then there wouldn't have been any chance to edit it to make MJ look bad.
I think some fans have a hard time accepting that MJs behaviour around this time was wildly out of touch and at times quite alarming. I think by 2002-3 he had completely lost his grip on reality and simply couldn't see how he came across to 99% of the public.
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Post by ghost on Oct 1, 2023 8:55:53 GMT
I think it's fair to say Bashir misled Michael into believing the documentary would be positive. You only have to watch the footage released by MJs team in the aftermath of the fallout to see what a snivelling rat Bashir was, saying how watching MJ with his kids made him want to weep etc. It was all very exploitative.
I don't think anyone will argue that MJ didn't help himself at times, but that doesn't excuse Bashir and the two-faced manner in which he managed to win MJs trust.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 9:06:20 GMT
At the end of the day, it was the things MJ said and did on camera that caused the most controversy - if he had behaved more rationally throughout the interviews then there wouldn't have been a problem. It was MJ who agreed to cuddle and hold hands with Gavin, it was MJ who insisted on defending the bed sharing etc and seemed erratic feeding Blanket the bottle with that stupid veil on his head achieving exactly nothing. If he hadn't behaved in this way, then there wouldn't have been any chance to edit it to make MJ look bad. I agree. Bashir was definitely 2 faced and completely stabbed him in the back in post-production, but all of the above far outweighed that. To anyone that already may have thought MJ was a creep, he did himself no favours here. But then again, I admire his honesty. Look where it got him though. I still find it a fascinating piece of work for many reasons.
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Post by ghost on Oct 1, 2023 9:06:26 GMT
I'd also like to add, being out of touch with reality is not a crime. I think MJ was naive, too trusting and easily exploited at this point in his life. It was also a foolish idea from the outset to try and get people to relate to MJ in the medium of a fly-on-the-wall documentary, seeing as he'd led a life of excess since he was a kid which most of us mere mortals couldn't begin to imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 9:08:09 GMT
I'd also like to add, being out of touch with reality is not a crime. I think MJ was naive, too trusting and easily exploited at this point in his life. It was also a foolish idea from the outset to try and get people to relate to MJ in the medium of a fly-on-the-wall documentary, seeing as he'd led a life of excess since he was a kid which most of us mere mortals couldn't begin to imagine. That shopping scene. Oof....
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 1, 2023 9:15:39 GMT
I'd also like to add, being out of touch with reality is not a crime. I think MJ was naive, too trusting and easily exploited at this point in his life. It was also a foolish idea from the outset to try and get people to relate to MJ in the medium of a fly-on-the-wall documentary, seeing as he'd led a life of excess since he was a kid which most of us mere mortals couldn't begin to imagine. That shopping scene. Oof.... Yeah, I hate that scene - it looks like he's trying to show off. I think it was probably deliberate on his part, to combat the rumours of his financial struggles which were rife at the time, but if that was his motivation, it didn't come off as he intended. The whole thing was a disaster and I try to forget it ever happened. As a fan, I'm perplexed by what MJ was going for with it. I think there's a lot of acting up for the cameras going on, maybe he was still trying to go for the whole Howard Hughes eccentric genius image, but it was ill-advised on his part. People already thought he was crazy, if anything he needed to play that down, not ham it up.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 9:24:44 GMT
That shopping scene. Oof.... Yeah, I hate that scene - it looks like he's trying to show off. I think it was probably deliberate on his part, to combat the rumours of his financial struggles which were rife at the time, but if that was his motivation, it didn't come off as he intended. The whole thing was a disaster and I try to forget it ever happened. As a fan, I'm perplexed by what MJ was going for with it. I think there's a lot of acting up for the cameras going on, maybe he was still trying to go for the whole Howard Hughes eccentric genius image, but it was ill-advised on his part. People already thought he was crazy, if anything he needed to play that down, not ham it up. I keep reading it was because he did wonder with Princess Diana and he was expecting the same, but... her interview was all about her relationships with the royals and affairs no? What he was expecting and thinking while it was all being recorded and filmed I will never for the life of me understand. I also think that a lot of fans get confused by what the "backstabbing" was. The backstabbing was Bashir's critical and two faced commentary added during post production. Everything else was on MJ.
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 1, 2023 9:33:03 GMT
Yeah, I hate that scene - it looks like he's trying to show off. I think it was probably deliberate on his part, to combat the rumours of his financial struggles which were rife at the time, but if that was his motivation, it didn't come off as he intended. The whole thing was a disaster and I try to forget it ever happened. As a fan, I'm perplexed by what MJ was going for with it. I think there's a lot of acting up for the cameras going on, maybe he was still trying to go for the whole Howard Hughes eccentric genius image, but it was ill-advised on his part. People already thought he was crazy, if anything he needed to play that down, not ham it up. I keep reading it was because he did wonder with Princess Diana and he was expecting the same, but... her interview was all about her relationships with the royals and affairs no? What he was expecting and thinking while it was all being recorded and filmed I will never for the life of me understand. I also think that a lot of fans get confused by what the "backstabbing" was. The backstabbing was Bashir's critical and two faced commentary added during post production. Everything else was on MJ. Unfortunately you are bang on 100%. The fact is, any career-furthering journalist would've done the same as Bashir. No, it doesn't make it right, but it's just a fact. The fact that nobody around MJ at the time tried to intervene goes to show how surrounded he was by enablers and sycophants. A lifetime of being surrounded by these people could warp even the most grounded persons perception of reality and I think the older MJ got, the more he retreated into his fantasy land where anything he said went.
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Post by invinciblegal on Oct 1, 2023 9:39:24 GMT
He absolutely was betrayed.
Imagine someone being so kind and flattering to your face and then turning around and telling the world how "disturbing" they thought you were.
I also think Bashir choreographed a lot of what we saw to make MJ look bad. Wasn't the whole scene where Gavin and MJ are holding hands Bashir's idea? I swear I remember reading that somewhere.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 1, 2023 9:44:55 GMT
I know MJ said he felt betrayed by Bashir and a lot of fans and supporters said they felt that the way Bashir edited the documentary was unfair to Michael. But am I the only one that doesn't see it? At the end of the day, it was the things MJ said and did on camera that caused the most controversy - if he had behaved more rationally throughout the interviews then there wouldn't have been a problem. It was MJ who agreed to cuddle and hold hands with Gavin, it was MJ who insisted on defending the bed sharing etc and seemed erratic feeding Blanket the bottle with that stupid veil on his head achieving exactly nothing. If he hadn't behaved in this way, then there wouldn't have been any chance to edit it to make MJ look bad. I think some fans have a hard time accepting that MJs behaviour around this time was wildly out of touch and at times quite alarming. I think by 2002-3 he had completely lost his grip on reality and simply couldn't see how he came across to 99% of the public. Even Gavin Arvizo at the 2005 trial said that Bashir's portrayal of MJ was false:
I'm not going to rehabilitate Bashir now. True, MJ wasn't in his best form mentally, but I'm with Lisa Marie and Madonna, who said it was all very exploitative, preying on his vulnerability. I think anyone with a little empathy could see that.
Also, didn't Bashir forge documents too to win MJ's trust?
So, while you can blame MJ for some of his behavior, there's no question that Bashir DID betray him. The two can be true at the same time. I am never going to acquit Bashir of this. Since then even more evidence came out of his sneaky ways (re. Diana etc), so yeah, he is no good.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 1, 2023 9:47:20 GMT
I think "betray" is really the wrong word for this as it suggests Bashir was a friend or had some degree of loyalty to MJ.
Reality is he was neither a friend or a loyalist by any means!
Bashir was what he's always been - a journalist looking for his next big ratings hit. Usually, they'll do whatever it takes to secure it. If that means sweet talking you, they'll do it. If it means falsifying a document to get your agreement, they'll do it.
With his long history, Michael knew better than most that the industry he worked in was full of charlatans.
Most perplexing was Michael agreed in contract to have NO editorial control. Something he'd always insisted on for years beforehand. Just look at the no disparaging remarks clause for HBO in exchange for Dangerous Bucharest concert broadcast rights. Filming alongside Bashir's crew just smacks of someone who realised after the fact he'd fucked up. So, you'd expect MJ to have been razor sharp and on his toes for the filming.
He wasn't.
30 mins into the broadcast and you could see the wheels falling off the wagon...
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 1, 2023 9:57:17 GMT
I think "betray" is really the wrong word for this as it suggests Bashir was a friend or had some degree of loyalty to MJ. Reality is he was neither a friend or a loyalist by any means! Bashir was what he's always been - a journalist looking for his next big ratings hit. Usually, they'll do whatever it takes to secure it. If that means sweet talking you, they'll do it. If it means falsifying a document to get your agreement, they'll do it. With his long history, Michael knew better than most that the industry he worked in was full of charlatans. Most perplexing was Michael agreed in contract to have NO editorial control. Something he'd always insisted on for years beforehand. Just look at the no disparaging remarks clause for HBO in exchange for Dangerous Bucharest concert broadcast rights. Filming alongside Bashir's crew just smacks of someone who realised after the fact he'd fucked up. So, you'd expect MJ to have been razor sharp and on his toes for the filming. He wasn't. 30 mins into the broadcast and you could see the wheels falling off the wagon... I think much of what we saw in the documentary was performative on MJs part. From the shopping trip scene, admitting to carrying Paris home covered in placenta, to the "I'm Peter Pan in my heart" remark... I think he was deliberately hamming it up for the cameras. He was the original troll while Russg was still in nappies. There's absolutely no way MJ didn't know this stuff was going to raise an eyebrow or two.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 1, 2023 10:09:21 GMT
I think "betray" is really the wrong word for this as it suggests Bashir was a friend or had some degree of loyalty to MJ. Reality is he was neither a friend or a loyalist by any means! Bashir was what he's always been - a journalist looking for his next big ratings hit. Usually, they'll do whatever it takes to secure it. If that means sweet talking you, they'll do it. If it means falsifying a document to get your agreement, they'll do it. With his long history, Michael knew better than most that the industry he worked in was full of charlatans. Most perplexing was Michael agreed in contract to have NO editorial control. Something he'd always insisted on for years beforehand. Just look at the no disparaging remarks clause for HBO in exchange for Dangerous Bucharest concert broadcast rights. Filming alongside Bashir's crew just smacks of someone who realised after the fact he'd fucked up. So, you'd expect MJ to have been razor sharp and on his toes for the filming. He wasn't. 30 mins into the broadcast and you could see the wheels falling off the wagon... I think much of what we saw in the documentary was performative on MJs part. From the shopping trip scene, admitting to carrying Paris home covered in placenta, to the "I'm Peter Pan in my heart" remark... I think he was deliberately hamming it up for the cameras. He was the original troll while Russg was still in nappies. There's absolutely no way MJ didn't know this stuff was going to raise an eyebrow or two. Those things really weren't the things most people were bothered by or focusing on. Michael actually said on camera that he HAS slept in the same bed with children. Just not the Arvizos. THAT is what most people focused on and were bothered by. The scene where MJ and Gavin held hands bothered people too. Those two scenes combined did MJ a lot more damage than anything like the shopping stunt, the Peter Pan thing or the placenta one. It really allowed so many to say "See! If that doesn't mean he's not a paedophile...". Of course, that documentary was the door opener to investigations into that nature. The way he was feeding Blanket and the dangling thing was another one that allowed many to say "See! I always said it wasn't safe to allow him around kids!". The stunts without those would have simply confirmed MJ as a harmless eccentric. Unfortunately, Michael signed away his own editorial control which would have avoided the programme's presentation. And his own behaviour allowed a trap to be set for a Bashir ratings winner. That thing ran for a long time. Michael simply was NOT razor sharp or on top of his game at that point.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 1, 2023 10:14:32 GMT
Like I said, Bashir didn't betray MJ since he wasn't a friend, co-worker or employee.
He wasn't ever an MJ loyalist!
Sure, Bashir manipulated things and MJ filming alongside is evidence he didn't fully trust him. But the horse had bolted as MJ had agreed in contract to have NO editorial control. Even Oprah didn't have full control over her interview in 1993.
For some reason, MJ threw away his decades of experience with journalists.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 1, 2023 10:16:05 GMT
I think "betray" is really the wrong word for this as it suggests Bashir was a friend or had some degree of loyalty to MJ. Reality is he was neither a friend or a loyalist by any means! Bashir was what he's always been - a journalist looking for his next big ratings hit. Usually, they'll do whatever it takes to secure it. If that means sweet talking you, they'll do it. If it means falsifying a document to get your agreement, they'll do it. With his long history, Michael knew better than most that the industry he worked in was full of charlatans. Most perplexing was Michael agreed in contract to have NO editorial control. Something he'd always insisted on for years beforehand. Just look at the no disparaging remarks clause for HBO in exchange for Dangerous Bucharest concert broadcast rights. Filming alongside Bashir's crew just smacks of someone who realised after the fact he'd fucked up. So, you'd expect MJ to have been razor sharp and on his toes for the filming. He wasn't. 30 mins into the broadcast and you could see the wheels falling off the wagon... I think much of what we saw in the documentary was performative on MJs part. From the shopping trip scene, admitting to carrying Paris home covered in placenta, to the "I'm Peter Pan in my heart" remark... I think he was deliberately hamming it up for the cameras. He was the original troll while Russg was still in nappies. There's absolutely no way MJ didn't know this stuff was going to raise an eyebrow or two.
I think MJ had some sort of stubbornness in him when it came to these things. If people were criticizing him for something, he did it some more. Like: "you are not going to tell me what to do" or "if you think that hanging with kids is suspicious that's your own dirty mind and I am not going to bow down to it". I often hear people say "okay, but after he was burned in 1993 why did he keep hanging with kids after that?". I think that's why. He didn't think it was wrong because he knew he wasn't doing anything wrong. And if someone believed you can only be in a room with a child if you are molesting them that's their problem, a problem of a dirty mind. I think this was probably his mindset.
Also (and regarding the other things, like placenta, shopping etc), I think he deliberately played on his eccentric part as well. And after a while he probably lost sight of what looks how in the public eye. That while running around with Bubbles looked like a cute eccentricity, no one will think his comments on placenta (I don't believe it actually happened) or the shopping scene looks cool.
Overall I felt he was in a bad place mentally in the early 2000s and probably drugs/medicine played a part in that too. I think he cleared up after the trial and he was back to his more normal self after that until his death. Like this interview was so much better, so much more his old self:
What I blame Bashir for is his lies to MJ to win his trust, the suggestive narration (that even Gavin said gave a false portrayal of MJ) and exploiting MJ's clearly vulnerable state of mind. While you can say it is just standard journalistic behavior (anything for the story), that still doesn't mean it is ethical, IMO.
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