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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 23, 2024 15:40:53 GMT
Do you guys have an issue with the words “complicated” or “complex” often attached to MJ and his legacy? (“controversial” is a common one too)
To be honest– I’m torn. on one hand, it is a fact that the allegations (and his general eccentricities) leveled against him in his lifetime and after are a part of his life story and have sadly become intrinsic in the retelling or analysis of his work and life. There’s no escaping that. So in a sense, yes, that does make him a complex/complicated person to talk about, whether you believe the allegations or not. The various controversies, self-inflicted and otherwise are indeed taboo and complicated discussions to have.
On the other hand, it’s very annoying for him to be relegated to such silly and vaguely sinister words. Because all humans are complicated and complex by their nature. We all are capable of both good and bad deeds and obviously, morality is a spectrum and most of us live in the grey area.
Idk what I’m getting at except that I wish he didn’t always have to be attached to the BS and the messiness and his incredible artistic output could just speak for itself but I know that is never going to happen at this point. It seems that his work has to be evaluated with a perverted or devious lens and it can’t be taken at face value anymore. He has to be an evil mastermind, a perverted Peter Pan, the abused child who grows up
to become the abuser, the art vs artist debate– all those cliche narratives.
And with the biopic coming out soon and the eventual press and countless think pieces it will garner, I know we will repeatedly see these words in the headlines and was wondering about other fans' relationship to those seemingly deep but at the same time, meaningless words.
That was very rant-y sorry! I’m a relatively young fan, so I’m not as jaded and numb to the criticism as some older fans are. Although LN did a number on me, I can still get worked up over things like this (clearly). But what do you guys think?
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Post by butterflies2 on Jul 23, 2024 15:47:04 GMT
He still has fans so I bring him up whenever I can, though the controversy bothers and some of it was so avoidable in his lifetime.
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Post by MattyJam on Jul 23, 2024 18:05:03 GMT
It is and it isn't.
Most people who aren't fans/haters, don't really care about the controversy, and remarkably, considering all the backlash/bad press, it's still widely acceptable to play his music. I still hear it on the radio, out and about, I observe people singing along to it and enjoying him publicly.
In all honesty, I think his legacy was too great to tarnish. And there aren't many people who you can say that about.
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Post by theunknownmonster on Jul 24, 2024 9:41:28 GMT
Do you guys have an issue with the words “complicated” or “complex” often attached to MJ and his legacy? (“controversial” is a common one too) To be honest– I’m torn. on one hand, it is a fact that the allegations (and his general eccentricities) leveled against him in his lifetime and after are a part of his life story and have sadly become intrinsic in the retelling or analysis of his work and life. There’s no escaping that. So in a sense, yes, that does make him a complex/complicated person to talk about, whether you believe the allegations or not. The various controversies, self-inflicted and otherwise are indeed taboo and complicated discussions to have. On the other hand, it’s very annoying for him to be relegated to such silly and vaguely sinister words. Because all humans are complicated and complex by their nature. We all are capable of both good and bad deeds and obviously, morality is a spectrum and most of us live in the grey area. Idk what I’m getting at except that I wish he didn’t always have to be attached to the BS and the messiness and his incredible artistic output could just speak for itself but I know that is never going to happen at this point. It seems that his work has to be evaluated with a perverted or devious lens and it can’t be taken at face value anymore. He has to be an evil mastermind, a perverted Peter Pan, the abused child who grows up to become the abuser, the art vs artist debate– all those cliche narratives. And with the biopic coming out soon and the eventual press and countless think pieces it will garner, I know we will repeatedly see these words in the headlines and was wondering about other fans' relationship to those seemingly deep but at the same time, meaningless words. That was very rant-y sorry! I’m a relatively young fan, so I’m not as jaded and numb to the criticism as some older fans are. Although LN did a number on me, I can still get worked up over things like this (clearly). But what do you guys think? It depends who you listen to. Perceptions on him vary wildly depending on who you ask. Some people believe he was the devil incarnate, others that he was the second coming. I do sympathise to a degree with younger, newer fans. I've been there in the past, taking it all to heart, getting worked up over every negative article and fighting with guiltists online, pointlessly trying to defend his innocence. If you stick around as a fan for long enough, you will eventually learn that you can't control what other people think and say about him and that what really matters is that he is still loved, respected and celebrated by many, many people all over the world. The rest is just noise. |
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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 24, 2024 13:23:48 GMT
Do you guys have an issue with the words “complicated” or “complex” often attached to MJ and his legacy? (“controversial” is a common one too) To be honest– I’m torn. on one hand, it is a fact that the allegations (and his general eccentricities) leveled against him in his lifetime and after are a part of his life story and have sadly become intrinsic in the retelling or analysis of his work and life. There’s no escaping that. So in a sense, yes, that does make him a complex/complicated person to talk about, whether you believe the allegations or not. The various controversies, self-inflicted and otherwise are indeed taboo and complicated discussions to have. On the other hand, it’s very annoying for him to be relegated to such silly and vaguely sinister words. Because all humans are complicated and complex by their nature. We all are capable of both good and bad deeds and obviously, morality is a spectrum and most of us live in the grey area. Idk what I’m getting at except that I wish he didn’t always have to be attached to the BS and the messiness and his incredible artistic output could just speak for itself but I know that is never going to happen at this point. It seems that his work has to be evaluated with a perverted or devious lens and it can’t be taken at face value anymore. He has to be an evil mastermind, a perverted Peter Pan, the abused child who grows up to become the abuser, the art vs artist debate– all those cliche narratives. And with the biopic coming out soon and the eventual press and countless think pieces it will garner, I know we will repeatedly see these words in the headlines and was wondering about other fans' relationship to those seemingly deep but at the same time, meaningless words. That was very rant-y sorry! I’m a relatively young fan, so I’m not as jaded and numb to the criticism as some older fans are. Although LN did a number on me, I can still get worked up over things like this (clearly). But what do you guys think? It depends who you listen to. Perceptions on him vary wildly depending on who you ask. Some people believe he was the devil incarnate, others that he was the second coming. I do sympathise to a degree with younger, newer fans. I've been there in the past, taking it all to heart, getting worked up over every negative article and fighting with guiltists online, pointlessly trying to defend his innocence. If you stick around as a fan for long enough, you will eventually learn that you can't control what other people think and say about him and that what really matters is that he is still loved, respected and celebrated by many, many people all over the world. The rest is just noise. I definitely get that. I’ve never been one to argue online, especially with those who have already made up their minds. But I do try to follow his perception outside of the MJ fan bubble to get a better understanding of his place in the current culture (which is a kind of self-inflicted torture at times). I wasn’t necessarily asking if his legacy is tarnished because I know it isn’t and most likely won’t be (especially if this biopic is successful). I was asking if words like complicated/complex accurately describe his legacy because they are so commonly used in mainstream media. I’m inclined to say yes because of what I said in my initial post, but it’s tricky because those words are so vague, equally meaningless and deep. |
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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 24, 2024 13:53:32 GMT
It is and it isn't. Most people who aren't fans/haters, don't really care about the controversy, and remarkably, considering all the backlash/bad press, it's still widely acceptable to play his music. I still hear it on the radio, out and about, I observe people singing along to it and enjoying him publicly. In all honesty, I think his legacy was too great to tarnish. And there aren't many people who you can say that about. I agree. It really is amazing, especially in this day and age that he hasn’t been snuffed out, all things considered. That just goes to show you his foothold and all the goodwill he built up while he was here (not to mention the facts are on his side). Not to be a downer, but I do think if he was ever found liable in a civil case of doing the things he was accused of doing that could very well be the end of the goodwill because so far, fans have always been able to say nothing has been proven, but if it’s ever proven to any degree in a court of law… then we’re more or less cooked. It would be too complicated to explain the nitty gritty of the cases to the general public, in my opinion. Idk who’s to say though. |
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Post by russtcb on Jul 24, 2024 16:32:10 GMT
Yes, absolutely. The amount of completely false things people believe about him is off the charts. That's a complicated legacy.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 25, 2024 13:49:23 GMT
It is and it isn't. Most people who aren't fans/haters, don't really care about the controversy, and remarkably, considering all the backlash/bad press, it's still widely acceptable to play his music. I still hear it on the radio, out and about, I observe people singing along to it and enjoying him publicly. In all honesty, I think his legacy was too great to tarnish. And there aren't many people who you can say that about. I agree. It really is amazing, especially in this day and age that he hasn’t been snuffed out, all things considered. That just goes to show you his foothold and all the goodwill he built up while he was here (not to mention the facts are on his side). Not to be a downer, but I do think if he was ever found liable in a civil case of doing the things he was accused of doing that could very well be the end of the goodwill because so far, fans have always been able to say nothing has been proven, but if it’s ever proven to any degree in a court of law… then we’re more or less cooked. It would be too complicated to explain the nitty gritty of the cases to the general public, in my opinion. Idk who’s to say though. I don't think you can put a posthumous civil trial on the same level as a criminal trial while MJ was here and able to defend himself. Let's say it goes the worst for us and MJ's companies are found liable. The absurdity of essentially trying a dead man who couldn't face his accusers and defend himself will forever hang around that verdict. There's a reason why it's a basic civil right to face your accusers and defend yourself. Here that right is basically circumvented and that renders this whole proceeding utterly unfair from the beginning. Then there's the clear monetary motive of the accusers in a civil trial which is not (at least so obviously) present at a criminal trial. Plus of course the lesser burden of proof in a civil trial, which is of course lucky for Wade and James, but also makes any verdict less authoritative. When TMZ or other mainstream media report about the developments in the case most of the general public sentiment seems to be: "he's dead, leave him alone already". People are just sick and tired of it. When it goes to trial they might create some new interest, but it's not going to be anywhere near to the interest in 2005. MJ is dead and the world has more recent issues to worry about. Not saying a civil trial, especially if the accusers win, can't cause significant damage again, but I'm skeptical if that would be a final blow. I don't want to sound too confident, but I feel (maybe wrongly, but that's how I see right now) MJ has past the point of being canceled. He's dead for 15 years. Even people who lean to believing the allegations or are on the fence about them don't really care about them any more and seem to have the sentiment that the whole allegations thing is a dead horse now. He's dead. What are you going to do? Dig up his body and bash it? Plus there's the general sense of discomfort in people seeing a dead man tried while two people are trying to make money with it. I don't think it has the same optics as either a criminal trial or even a civil trial against a living person. |
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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 25, 2024 18:48:01 GMT
I agree. It really is amazing, especially in this day and age that he hasn’t been snuffed out, all things considered. That just goes to show you his foothold and all the goodwill he built up while he was here (not to mention the facts are on his side). Not to be a downer, but I do think if he was ever found liable in a civil case of doing the things he was accused of doing that could very well be the end of the goodwill because so far, fans have always been able to say nothing has been proven, but if it’s ever proven to any degree in a court of law… then we’re more or less cooked. It would be too complicated to explain the nitty gritty of the cases to the general public, in my opinion. Idk who’s to say though. I don't think you can put a posthumous civil trial on the same level as a criminal trial while MJ was here and able to defend himself. Let's say it goes the worst for us and MJ's companies are found liable. The absurdity of essentially trying a dead man who couldn't face his accusers and defend himself will forever hang around that verdict. There's a reason why it's a basic civil right to face your accusers and defend yourself. Here that right is basically circumvented and that renders this whole proceeding utterly unfair from the beginning. Then there's the clear monetary motive of the accusers in a civil trial which is not (at least so obviously) present at a criminal trial. Plus of course the lesser burden of proof in a civil trial, which is of course lucky for Wade and James, but also makes any verdict less authoritative. When TMZ or other mainstream media report about the developments in the case most of the general public sentiment seems to be: "he's dead, leave him alone already". People are just sick and tired of it. When it goes to trial they might create some new interest, but it's not going to be anywhere near to the interest in 2005. MJ is dead and the world has more recent issues to worry about. Not saying a civil trial, especially if the accusers win, can't cause significant damage again, but I'm skeptical if that would be a final blow. I don't want to sound too confident, but I feel (maybe wrongly, but that's how I see right now) MJ has past the point of being canceled. He's dead for 15 years. Even people who lean to believing the allegations or are on the fence about them don't really care about them any more and seem to have the sentiment that the whole allegations thing is a dead horse now. He's dead. What are you going to do? Dig up his body and bash it? Plus there's the general sense of discomfort in people seeing a dead man tried while two people are trying to make money with it. I don't think it has the same optics as either a criminal trial or even a civil trial against a living person. I don’t disagree with any of what you said about the issues with a posthumous civil trial, it’s all absurd and totally unfair. It’s no way in the same field as a criminal trial and what he went through in 2005. My point was I don’t think the general public is going to know or care about all the ethical complications of the civil trial and they will just see the bare bone optics of 2 accusers vs. MJ ( I know it’s technically his companies) and if the boys “win” it’s a confirmation of what many already think of him or are on the fence about. I don’t think there are going to be many mainstream media exposés about the unfairness or ethical issues of this trial, most mainstream media are on the boys side. I guess i’m more pessimistic about how he’s perceived. He is undoubtedly musically/artistically revered and always will be, but I think on a personal level most of the general public are skeptical about how he lived his life behind closed doors. That’s just my view of things. I guess this goes into a more complicated discussion on what it means to be “canceled”. God forbid he is found liable and backlash proceeds it, I agree that MJ is as close as one could get to someone being impossible to cancel and dismiss because of the strong foothold of his legacy.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 26, 2024 1:29:31 GMT
But he's dead. It's becoming less and less important what anyone thinks of his personal life. And I don't know how much it matters what someone who's not knowledgeable of the case thinks of it.
What matters now and for the long term how his art holds up and it's doing incredibly well, better than most legacy artists'.
Not saying I'm not saddened by the unfairness of the allegations and the unfairness of the stigma it put on him. If it didn't bother me I wouldn't have made my website. But I think we sometimes need to zoom out from focusing so much on the allegations and see the bigger picture. And the bigger picture is that MJ is envied by most of his peers' fandoms for his ongoing popularity. Madonna, Prince or Janet fans would give their arm for MJ's sustained popularity for their faves.
So what are we really doom and gloom about? That the media calls him "complicated" or "controversial"? Give me that any time over a forgotten legacy! If I had a choice between a squeaky clean image but forgotten art and a controversial image but popular art, I'd rather have the latter. After all an artist lives on in his art. After 20, 50, 100, 500 etc years less and less people care about the private life, it's the art that eventually remains of an artist's legacy.
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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 26, 2024 3:21:58 GMT
But he's dead. It's becoming less and less important what anyone thinks of his personal life. And I don't know how much it matters what someone who's not knowledgeable of the case thinks of it. I think the fact that he’s dead gives people more room to speculate and spread misinformation without repercussions. I mean you could argue if LN and the posthumous accusations would have happened if he were alive– I don’t think so. I also think people will always be fascinated in his personal life given all the controversy and perceived oddness. Most people aren’t knowledgeable on the MJ cases, beside v surface level info, if that. I’m talking about most of the general public, they have the power to sway public opinion and rule the “narrative” and that’s why it matters. We saw what happened with LN and the backlash, obviously he wasn’t officially canceled back then, but MSM deliberately tried to control how the general public interacted with him and his legacy following the doc. |
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Post by abbeycodi on Jul 26, 2024 3:31:50 GMT
I was just curious what people’s relationship to the words complicated and complex were, how they define it, that’s all my original post was getting at. I thought it was an interesting question given the vagueness of the words and the frequency next to MJ’s name in headlines.
I’m not trying to be doom and gloom or imply that his controversy is greater or overshadows his artistic achievements. I certainly don’t think that, but that’s up to the individual to decide.
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Post by kelley on Jul 26, 2024 6:59:37 GMT
We need to start demanding that Michael's life story be framed properly. He is the victim when it comes to the false allegations. The false accusers and their allies committed crimes against him and they persecuted him and they got away with it. He never got the justice he deserved for everything they put him through.
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Post by russtcb on Jul 26, 2024 7:47:12 GMT
We need to start demanding that Michael's life story be framed properly. He is the victim when it comes to the false allegations. The false accusers and their allies committed crimes against him and they persecuted him and they got away with it. He never got the justice he deserved for everything they put him through. "We need to start"? People have been doing that for literal decades. |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486 
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Post by TonyR on Jul 26, 2024 17:57:59 GMT
Well, if his legacy isn't complicated then I don't know who's is.
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