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Post by mistermaxxx08 on Jan 19, 2018 8:09:43 GMT
a culture vulture like Justin Timberlake gets hype for what Usher did on the regular
and they both got that off MJ. anyway the double standard in racial politics in the music business got me thinking
and what do you think about how it seems white artists have always gotten privledge where black artists
had to be twice as good?
folks from back in the day know how much harder MJ had to go at it just to get love. remember how they dissed him from off the wall at the awards
and how he said with thriller they won't forget.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Jan 19, 2018 10:00:30 GMT
As far as I'm concerned it is not a matter that is open for debate, it is simply historical fact. Going back to the days of Elvis Presley aping Little Richard's stage act, or The Rolling Stones taking the style of Chuck Berry and repackaging it for white audiences.
It has become more nauseating over time, as at least Elvis and The Stones did it well. These days we're forced to watch very mediocre acts like Justin Timberlake, Sam Smith, Ed Sheeran and Adele have huge success with R&B music, using black producers and black featured artists to add credibility, whilst vastly more talented black artists like MJ, Whitney, George Clinton, Van Hunt, Chaka Khan, Prince etc never get the same kind of exposure, industry recognition, awards etc, or if they do, it's usually at a cost. Some of them struggle to get their music played on the radio and struggle to sell out venues half the size of these white pretenders to the throne.
I mean, did you know Justin Timberlake has more Grammy's than Prince???
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Post by Liberian Girl on Jan 19, 2018 10:08:09 GMT
^ I think you can get mediocre acts that are white artists who get praise/awards and record deals they don't deserve. But then you get some black artists who are overrated.
There are black people who deserve success and don't seem to get recognition, but there are also some white artists who don't get the recognition they deserve...
Do you get what I am saying? In my opinion this isn't about colour, it's about people, some who have success they don't deserve and some who don't have success when they deserve it. It doesn't always fall on one race or ethnicity. It happens to people, not necessarily anything to do with colour in my opinion.
Yes, it's wrong that Justin Timberlake won more Grammy's than Prince, but that's not necessarily because he's white - I mean, Beyonce won more Grammy's than MJ (so wrong!) but she is black too!
I'm not saying racist stuff doesn't exist in the industry - I'm sure it does, which disgusts me - but I'm just saying not every musical injustice is down to race.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 19, 2018 10:35:00 GMT
White privilege has been prevalent in just about every aspect of life and popular culture since the beginning of time. Is it real to me? It's simply fact! In music, in Hollywood, in waking down the street, in everyday life.
But here's a certain point interest; the persecution of black people -music artist's- and the fact that they had to work a hundered time's harder, gave them an authenticity and heritage quality that probably most white artist's lack or can seldom achieve.
Justin Timberlake is probably the best -possibly most used- example in terms of who's popular right now. He is obviously nowhere near the level of talent that Prince and MJ had, but he's white, so his "mass appeal" allows him a level of exposure and success that he probably believes equates to talent.
Going back to the cotton fields to where black slaves sang soul, gospel and folk songs, their ancestors carried in their blood those songs of hardship which modern day black artists have in their DNA from their upbringing. It's bitter sweet though, if black people hadn't had it as hard as they've had it, would they be as authentic, as hungry, as talented as they had to be? Would the world have had James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross, Michael, Prince, Whitney etc? I can't really ever see Timberlake being a Legacy artist, like a lot of today's and yesterday's white artist's who ettempt to pass off the black experience as their own, it just comes across as very pedestrian.
Yes white privilege allows white acts like Timberlake loads of awards and attention, but surely most people are drawn to talent in the grander scheme of things and I think that's why Elvis, The Beatles, The Stones and others have lasted; although they were massively influenced by black music they were also genuinely talented and acknowledged their influences rather than claiming to be them. Elvis may have not been perfect but the guy grew up in a black society and was humble.
Also,there are as many black acts as there are white acts right now who to be honest are less than talented and who are simply trading on the fact that they're black.
Edit] And Liberian Girl makes a few interesting points that I agree with.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,492 
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Post by TonyR on Jan 19, 2018 11:35:37 GMT
If the best selling male artist of all time i.e. MJ is black and the biggest female artist of the last few years (Beyonce) is black then in way that answers the question.
Obviously race used to play a massive part in music, we all know that MJ helped break that down. But if the artist is good enough then I don't think they struggle anymore if they are black. I can't imagine most record labels care, they just want to sell records.
However, can a white artist appeal to more people, possibly. But artists like the once Aazzaabb mentions above plus other current artists (Beyonce, Bruno Mars, Rhianna, Usher, Jay Z, Alicia Keys, Kanye West) shows it's hardly a one off for black acts to break through.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 19, 2018 11:46:50 GMT
I'd like to add that for the most part I'm talking in historical terms. I do agree with TonyR actually. Music critics everywhere have labelled Kanye a genius over the years. I couldn't agree less to be honest.
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Post by respect77 on Jan 19, 2018 12:39:16 GMT
Yes, obviously white privilege has helped white artists have success and exposure over more talented black ones. Elvis is one example, but even in the 1980s MJ had to fight that MTV played his videos. The politically correct version was that they didn't play him because he wasn't rock and MTV was supposedly a rock channel. But "rock" was just an euphemism for music and artists that appealed to white suburban kids who were MTV's target audience at the time. Thriller broke down a lot if barriers there but those barriers still existed at the time.
I want to talk about another, more subtle form of racism in the industry and that has more to do with how much critical acclaim is given to certain type of artists vs. another. Typically critics will hold those acts in the highest regard where you have a guy in stage with a guitar, singing about some political issue. Those are considered "serious artists" as opposed to the dancing-singing man, even if that dancing-singing man actually had important and serious messages while singing and dancing (eg. MJ). But the message is never taken seriously by critics fron the dancing-singing man. In fact he often gets ridiculed and bashed for messages that others get praise for (see critics reaction to TDCAU or Earth Song when they came out).
I think this phenomenon too has racist origins. Singing-dancing artists were originally black artists (Jackie Wilson, James Brown) etc. while white artists always lagged behind in the art if dance (at least in popular music, I'm not talking about dancing actors such as Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly). White artists were typically the guy with the guitar types. And there seems to be a still widely held aesthetics that those artists are somehow more serious and more worthy, while the dancing-singing guy is "just an entertainer". I think it's wrong.
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Post by funksoldier on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:33 GMT
Okay, everybody's taking JT for an example. But what about Eminem? I mean, he is a very good rapper and one of the best lyricists of all time, hands down! BUT, and he knows that too, he wouldn't have the success he has, if he wasn't white. He even said it himself in White America. It's the truth, I mean yeah, we got 2Pac, Biggie, Naz. But I don't think they are as popular as Eminem. Hip Hop artists didn't get the respect they deserved, but then Eminem came along and they made him a big figure in popular culture.
Would've tupac got the same treatmend if he didn't die? Or Biggie? I don't know, but I doubt it. The same goes for Elvis, yes he did it good, but come on! Little Richard did it before and I find him better, but Elvis was white. They actually put white people on Vinyl Covers, just to sell black artists to white people. That tells us what?
I don't blame the artists, I blame the industry. I mean, look, it's a complicated subject, because it started so long ago. Black people always have been treated like shit. Didn't MJ fight against Sony because he found out that black artists get less money than white artists?
Why is JB more popular than Jason Derulo? What about The Weeknd? Justin Bieber ain't shit compared to them, so why is he more popular? And Kanye? He's gettin' dismissed all the time, would it be the same if he was white, or would they call him a genius?
I believe white people got a privilege everywhere, that includes music industry too.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,492
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Post by TonyR on Jan 19, 2018 13:31:14 GMT
Okay, everybody's taking JT for an example. But what about Eminem? I mean, he is a very good rapper and one of the best lyricists of all time, hands down! BUT, and he knows that too, he wouldn't have the success he has, if he wasn't white. He even said it himself in White America. It's the truth, I mean yeah, we got 2Pac, Biggie, Naz. But I don't think they are as popular as Eminem. Hip Hop artists didn't get the respect they deserved, but then Eminem came along and they made him a big figure in popular culture. Would've tupac got the same treatmend if he didn't die? Or Biggie? I don't know, but I doubt it. The same goes for Elvis, yes he did it good, but come on! Little Richard did it before and I find him better, but Elvis was white. They actually put white people on Vinyl Covers, just to sell black artists to white people. That tells us what? I don't blame the artists, I blame the industry. I mean, look, it's a complicated subject, because it started so long ago. Black people always have been treated like shit. Didn't MJ fight against Sony because he found out that black artists get less money than white artists? Why is JB more popular than Jason Derulo? What about The Weeknd? Justin Bieber ain't shit compared to them, so why is he more popular? And Kanye? He's gettin' dismissed all the time, would it be the same if he was white, or would they call him a genius? I believe white people got a privilege everywhere, that includes music industry too. Although I agree with the last sentence, it still doesn;t explain the success of Prince or MJ or Whitney.
Another factor is that people love artists they can identify with, not exclusively, but that's a big part of it. Bieber is more popularthan Weeknd or Derulo because he's young, white teen that millions of other young, white teen girls can dream about marrying or finger blasted by or whatever these kids do these days.
No obviously he hasn't got a 100% white audience nor has Derulo got a 100% black audience, but most of the music buying public in Western world is white so inevitably just like most MPs are white, most board members are white then I guess many major pop stars are white. But ask a Bieber fan why they like him more than Derulo, the answer won't be because he's white, it's just because he's more identifiable with them.
That doesn't make it racism.
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Post by funksoldier on Jan 19, 2018 13:33:35 GMT
Okay, everybody's taking JT for an example. But what about Eminem? I mean, he is a very good rapper and one of the best lyricists of all time, hands down! BUT, and he knows that too, he wouldn't have the success he has, if he wasn't white. He even said it himself in White America. It's the truth, I mean yeah, we got 2Pac, Biggie, Naz. But I don't think they are as popular as Eminem. Hip Hop artists didn't get the respect they deserved, but then Eminem came along and they made him a big figure in popular culture. Would've tupac got the same treatmend if he didn't die? Or Biggie? I don't know, but I doubt it. The same goes for Elvis, yes he did it good, but come on! Little Richard did it before and I find him better, but Elvis was white. They actually put white people on Vinyl Covers, just to sell black artists to white people. That tells us what? I don't blame the artists, I blame the industry. I mean, look, it's a complicated subject, because it started so long ago. Black people always have been treated like shit. Didn't MJ fight against Sony because he found out that black artists get less money than white artists? Why is JB more popular than Jason Derulo? What about The Weeknd? Justin Bieber ain't shit compared to them, so why is he more popular? And Kanye? He's gettin' dismissed all the time, would it be the same if he was white, or would they call him a genius? I believe white people got a privilege everywhere, that includes music industry too. Although I agree with the last sentence, it still doesn;t explain the success of Prince or MJ or Whitney.
Another factor is that people love artists they can identify with, not exclusively, but that's a big part of it. Bieber is more popularthan Weeknd or Derulo because he's young, white teen that millions of other young, white teen girls can dream about marrying or finger blasted by or whatever these kids do these days.
No obviously he hasn't got a 100% white audience nor has Derulo got a 100% black audience, but most of the music buying public in Western world is white so inevitably just like most MPs are white, most board members are white then I guess many major pop stars are white. But ask a Bieber fan why they like him more than Derulo, the answer won't be because he's white, it's just because he's more identifiable with them.
That doesn't make it racism.
Good points tho  |
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Post by respect77 on Jan 19, 2018 14:14:47 GMT
Okay, everybody's taking JT for an example. But what about Eminem? I mean, he is a very good rapper and one of the best lyricists of all time, hands down! BUT, and he knows that too, he wouldn't have the success he has, if he wasn't white. He even said it himself in White America. It's the truth, I mean yeah, we got 2Pac, Biggie, Naz. But I don't think they are as popular as Eminem. Hip Hop artists didn't get the respect they deserved, but then Eminem came along and they made him a big figure in popular culture. Would've tupac got the same treatmend if he didn't die? Or Biggie? I don't know, but I doubt it. The same goes for Elvis, yes he did it good, but come on! Little Richard did it before and I find him better, but Elvis was white. They actually put white people on Vinyl Covers, just to sell black artists to white people. That tells us what? I don't blame the artists, I blame the industry. I mean, look, it's a complicated subject, because it started so long ago. Black people always have been treated like shit. Didn't MJ fight against Sony because he found out that black artists get less money than white artists? Why is JB more popular than Jason Derulo? What about The Weeknd? Justin Bieber ain't shit compared to them, so why is he more popular? And Kanye? He's gettin' dismissed all the time, would it be the same if he was white, or would they call him a genius? I believe white people got a privilege everywhere, that includes music industry too. Although I agree with the last sentence, it still doesn;t explain the success of Prince or MJ or Whitney.
Another factor is that people love artists they can identify with, not exclusively, but that's a big part of it. Bieber is more popularthan Weeknd or Derulo because he's young, white teen that millions of other young, white teen girls can dream about marrying or finger blasted by or whatever these kids do these days.
No obviously he hasn't got a 100% white audience nor has Derulo got a 100% black audience, but most of the music buying public in Western world is white so inevitably just like most MPs are white, most board members are white then I guess many major pop stars are white. But ask a Bieber fan why they like him more than Derulo, the answer won't be because he's white, it's just because he's more identifiable with them.
That doesn't make it racism.
I think you conflate white privilege with racism. White privilege isn't necessarily conscious racism, but white people automatically give more benefits to white artists thus they have an unfair advantage. |
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Jan 19, 2018 14:26:43 GMT
If the best selling male artist of all time i.e. MJ is black and the biggest female artist of the last few years (Beyonce) is black then in way that answers the question. It doesn't. There's something that always irks me too. I go to a lot of second hand record stores and I go to record fairs where record sellers from all over the country will set up stalls for a day and charge people to come in and buy vinyl. And virtually all of these record stores and sellers focus either entirely or 90%+ of their stock on white rock artists. So I think okay fine they know their customer base and the type of music they buy. Vinyl purchasers are maybe all middle aged white men. But then I think 'that's me', and I'm very interested in 'black music', so why is it so hard to find? I'm not suggesting this demonstrates why I answered 'yes' to the poll, but it's incredibly insulting/frustrating for 'black music' to be pushed to the edges and lumped together as one, or entirely erased, in the vinyl collecting market. |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Jan 19, 2018 14:30:30 GMT
Although I agree with the last sentence, it still doesn;t explain the success of Prince or MJ or Whitney.
Another factor is that people love artists they can identify with, not exclusively, but that's a big part of it. Bieber is more popularthan Weeknd or Derulo because he's young, white teen that millions of other young, white teen girls can dream about marrying or finger blasted by or whatever these kids do these days.
No obviously he hasn't got a 100% white audience nor has Derulo got a 100% black audience, but most of the music buying public in Western world is white so inevitably just like most MPs are white, most board members are white then I guess many major pop stars are white. But ask a Bieber fan why they like him more than Derulo, the answer won't be because he's white, it's just because he's more identifiable with them.
That doesn't make it racism.
I think you conflate white privilege with racism. White privilege isn't necessarily conscious racism, but white people automatically give more benefits to white artists thus they have an unfair advantage. Maybe, but the term 'white privilege' surely has racist conotations. If I was give a white person a job in my team and someone said they got it because of white privilege then it's the same thing in that case.
But for 'white people automatically give more benefits to white artists thus they have an unfair advantage.' part, is the same not true for 'black people automatically give more benefits to black artists thus they have an unfair advantage.'
I don't deny that it's much easier in this world if you're male/white/straight. I really don't. But for some reason this term really gets my goat as I see it being massivley over used if a white male does well now which I find very offensive & probably racist in itself.
Also it's used just of someone doesn't particularly like someone. Now I won't start another JT thread for obvious reasons, bur for people that don't like him then I hear 'he's only got where we has due to WMP', but if they were a fan of Ed Sheeran they wouldn't claim the same.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,492
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Post by TonyR on Jan 19, 2018 14:34:14 GMT
If the best selling male artist of all time i.e. MJ is black and the biggest female artist of the last few years (Beyonce) is black then in way that answers the question. It doesn't. There's something that always irks me too. I go to a lot of second hand record stores and I go to record fairs where record sellers from all over the country will set up stalls for a day and charge people to come in and buy vinyl. And virtually all of these record stores and sellers focus either entirely or 90%+ of their stock on white rock artists. So I think okay fine they know their customer base and the type of music they buy. Vinyl purchasers are maybe all middle aged white men. But then I think 'that's me', and I'm very interested in 'black music', so why is it so hard to find? I'm not suggesting this demonstrates why I answered 'yes' to the poll, but it's incredibly insulting/frustrating for 'black music' to be pushed to the edges and lumped together as one, or entirely erased, in the vinyl collecting market. Because that's the music they've been more into all their lives therefore collected?
Me & my mates had a vinyl night last weekend & looking back I think I was the only one who brought any muic by black artists. Now these two friends are extremely liberal, non racist people but in this case they chose music by white artists.
Totally nothing to do with race or white privilege.
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
Posts: 200
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Post by ChrisC on Jan 19, 2018 14:40:11 GMT
It doesn't. There's something that always irks me too. I go to a lot of second hand record stores and I go to record fairs where record sellers from all over the country will set up stalls for a day and charge people to come in and buy vinyl. And virtually all of these record stores and sellers focus either entirely or 90%+ of their stock on white rock artists. So I think okay fine they know their customer base and the type of music they buy. Vinyl purchasers are maybe all middle aged white men. But then I think 'that's me', and I'm very interested in 'black music', so why is it so hard to find? I'm not suggesting this demonstrates why I answered 'yes' to the poll, but it's incredibly insulting/frustrating for 'black music' to be pushed to the edges and lumped together as one, or entirely erased, in the vinyl collecting market. Because that's the music they've been more into all their lives therefore collected?
Me & my mates had a vinyl night last weekend & looking back I think I was the only one who brought any muic by black artists. Now these two friends are extremely liberal, non racist people but in this case they chose music by white artists.
Totally nothing to do with race or white privilege.
I wouldn't say it necessarily was. But I wanted to bring it up nonetheless. But to clarify, these aren't fans selling off their personal collections on the side, these are professional dealers. I was in a record store in Glasgow and the owner was on the phone to a person who was offering to bring in vinyl to sell to the owner and I kept hearing him stipulating over and over "only rock music". And as you've indicated, black artists have been just as successful at market as whites. |
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