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Post by Liberian Girl on Jul 29, 2017 18:32:10 GMT
I love the earlier stuff, (obviously, because they are simply amazing, classic pop songs), but for me Michael's creative peak was in the mid 90s. History, to me, is up there as amongst his best work. Strong, beautiful, raw, honest and angry - it has it all. Surely it is Michael's most personal album, and that really makes the songs shine to me as a fan. I feel I can glimpse Michael's soul when I listen to songs like Scream, TDCAU, Childhood, Smile, Little Susie etc. Then of course, the new songs on BOTDF and Ghosts. All of that is pure genius, as far as I am concerned.
To put it in a nutshell, his earlier work was great, but his work in the 90s was so deep in the creative well that I am in absolute awe of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 18:40:54 GMT
Michael had a multi faceted career that spanned decades. People experienced him various stages. No experience is any more, or less valid than the other.
That being said, one doesn't have to be of a certain time to understand the impact of it. It has been fully documented. His story has been told.
^^Many MJ fans (not all) at least the ones born in the 70s and onwards only know and love the J5 classics. I personally am more of a fan of the Jacksons albums than complete J5 ones.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jul 29, 2017 19:07:38 GMT
^^ I don't think anyone see's anything wrong with it. Most other artists who don't have hits tend to say their album artists. J5 was a singles act, that was the big market back then -I love the first 3 J5 albums, I even like the Christmas album- but people still love the hits and always will, it's a good thing. I think it's limiting to call Jackson 5 an singles or albums act. They were an overall phenomenon. Whether it was the cartoon series, concerts and tv performances, vegas act, etc. No other group that age had ever done it on that level.
I understand what you're saying and I agree they were a phenomenon but Motown were a singles driven label. It stood far greater to the J5 to have 3 #1 singles in a row than have artistically thought-out albums. They were a pop group. Nothing wrong with that. I've even heard other Motown artists say this. Phil Spector was a singles driven producer, It was all about the 45" vinyl discs and the singles charts. The Beatles were a studio band. They started out as quite a tight group from their Germany days and the club circuit but when they hit the big time and toured their playing suffered because they couldn't hear themselves so they decided to quit being a live group and be a studio group. They weren't a very good live group towards the end of their last tour. I don't think that necessarily takes anything away from them as they would say themselves they were a studio band.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jul 29, 2017 19:14:03 GMT
I love the earlier stuff, (obviously, because they are simply amazing, classic pop songs), but for me Michael's creative peak was in the mid 90s. History, to me, is up there as amongst his best work. Strong, beautiful, raw, honest and angry - it has it all. Surely it is Michael's most personal album, and that really makes the songs shine to me as a fan. I feel I can glimpse Michael's soul when I listen to songs like Scream, TDCAU, Childhood, Smile, Little Susie etc. Then of course, the new songs on BOTDF and Ghosts. All of that is pure genius, as far as I am concerned. To put it in a nutshell, his earlier work was great, but his work in the 90s was so deep in the creative well that I am in absolute awe of it. Yeah I think I agree with you. Bad is probably my favorite era but the 90's was next level in terms of his creativity. Gawd its so hard with MJ!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 19:14:16 GMT
The foundation had already been set, for the most part, during the time period that this thread speaks of.
The autobiographical growing pains of; 'That's What You Get For Being Polite', 'Bless His Soul', 'Things I Do For You', 'Destiny', 'Blues Away'.
The distrust in women; 'Heartbreak Hotel', 'Billie Jean', 'Walk Right Now'
The gossip and rumours of my favourite 'Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
The humanitarian and peacemaker of 'Beat It' and 'Can You Feel It'.
Of course, he covered many other singular themes that can't be labelled ('The Man', 'Sunset Driver', 'Working Day And Night'). However, it's clear that it wasn't all 'fun Pop stuff' (not that there's anything wrong with that at all )
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 20:32:43 GMT
I think it's sad that we can't even have a discussion about the time period that this thread was originally intended to be about (1978-1982), without it becoming a '90's appreciation thread.
A large chunk of Michael's '90's work exists solely because of a tragic situation that never should have happened in the first place. Why is it being used as the standard, when it was not destined to be the natural course of his life? It was a meltdown. Completely due to circumstances.
I personally don't enjoy such darkness. With Michael literally screaming for help. It's a miserable reminder of what was the beginning of the end. Where's the joy in that? Of course, I don't resent him for telling his story. I'm just devastated and sorry that it happened in the first place. I don't want that to be my lasting memory of him.
Yes, I can marvel at his growth as a composer ('Earth Song', 'Childhood', 'Heal The World', 'Will You Be There', but nothing else I'm afraid...
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Post by HIStoric on Jul 30, 2017 0:04:01 GMT
I gotta be honest, I consider The Jacksons to be a 'greatest hits' band. You can buy their Greatest Hits, receive a disc full of really, really good tracks, but once you explore the tracks outside of those on the GH, there's not much there to go wild about. Least that's been my experience. There's still a tiny handful of non-GH songs I rather enjoy (I really really like Things I Do For You, especially the live version). I replayed Triumph a few weeks back and any of the tracks not on the GH weren't necessarily bad, but they didn't really command to be replayed either. I found them largely forgettable. I tried to play Victory but gave up after a bit, it's a terrible album, outside of State of Shock and perhaps Be Not Always - which I like because it's Michael against a simple acoustic guitar but the guitar instrumental leaves something to be desired. Stylistically comparable, I like Michael's Much Too Soon and wish I could hear more of Michael against a simple guitar. I see fans go on about how forgotten a lot of The Jacksons material is, but then I play most stuff outside of their greatest hits and to me it's really not hard to see why. Some of the songs that do feature on the Greatest Hits remain absolutely incredible, unforgettable classics to this day that make you wanna do nothing but dance - like Blame it on the Boogie is known by practically everyone and was actually even played at a party I was at a few weeks back. I appreciate your honesty HIStoric, but wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that The Jacksons are a GH band. You would never find songs like Push Me Away, Time Waits For No One, That's What You Get For Being Polite, Dreamer, Bless His Soul, Things I Do For You, One More Chance, Be Not Always, Walk Right Now or Destiny on a Jacksons hits collection, and I personally would take each and every one of those songs over Blame It On The Boogie. I agree that Victory is a mixed bag, but Torture, One More Chance, State of Shock and Be Not Always are solid cuts, and some of the brothers tracks like Wait and Body are actually pretty good, if you can stomach the cheesiness. Walk Right Now is actually on The Very Best of The Jackson's, which I have! Love it, it's so funky and makes me wanna dance. Dreamer is on there as well. Only other one I wish was on there is Things I Do For You, but their live album introduced me to it.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 30, 2017 4:59:51 GMT
I am not sure I agree with OP. While the early 80s stuff was great but from those albums, OTW, Thriller there are hardly any unrelased songs remaining. I feel as a songwriter he was more creative during Bad and Dangerous. Bad was all written by him bar two songs and has LOTS of unreleased songs from that era. Dangerous was such a great album but it is that era when he also wrote songs like TDCAU or Earth Song and others that were used on later albums. So to me it seems he was at least as creative as earlier up until at least the early '90s, only most of his songs stayed in the vault while during the earlier eras the songs that didn't make on his solo albums were used for Jacksons projects. Also videos, choreography also belong to his creativity and in that the Bad-Dangerous era definitely trumps OTW-Thriller. Well, he never stopped creating fantastic and original choreographies until 2Bad, which to me is one of his greatest choreographies. You would never find songs like Push Me Away, Time Waits For No One, That's What You Get For Being Polite, Dreamer, Bless His Soul, Things I Do For You, One More Chance, Be Not Always, Walk Right Now or Destiny on a Jacksons hits collection, and I personally would take each and every one of those songs over Blame It On The Boogie. Agree wholeheartedly. To me Blame it on the Boogie is almost the weakest and least interesting song on Destiny. I can see why that is the hit, but I think the album has many better songs. And Triumph is a perfect album, to me there are only two fillers on it (the last two songs). It's weird to hear them called a GH band when at the time basically many artists had one or two really good songs on an album and the rest were fillers. On contrary to that both Triumph and Destiny actually have many great tracks which make them have a pretty constant quality all through the album.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 30, 2017 5:36:43 GMT
I think it's sad that we can't even have a discussion about the time period that this thread was originally intended to be about (1978-1982), without it becoming a '90's appreciation thread.
A large chunk of Michael's '90's work exists solely because of a tragic situation that never should have happened in the first place. Why is it being used as the standard, when it was not destined to be the natural course of his life? It was a meltdown. Completely due to circumstances.
I personally don't enjoy such darkness. With Michael literally screaming for help. It's a miserable reminder of what was the beginning of the end. Where's the joy in that? Of course, I don't resent him for telling his story. I'm just devastated and sorry that it happened in the first place. I don't want that to be my lasting memory of him.
Yes, I can marvel at his growth as a composer ('Earth Song', 'Childhood', 'Heal The World', 'Will You Be There', but nothing else I'm afraid... To me music isn't just about fun. Sometimes it is the dark things that are cathartic. Yes, a lot of his '90s work exist because of the horrible experiences he went through but then often the whole existence of bands are built on bad experiences. Would Nirvana have even existed if Kurt Cobain didn't have a crappy childhood and wasn't miserable? The same can be said of many, many bands. It is natural that artists would vent their real life experiences in their music - that's what makes them real. The great thing about MJ's art that there is something for everyone. You are more into careless, fun dance and pop tracks? Then you can go to the '80s stuff. But he didn't shy away to explore darker themes either and I love that material as well. Really? Nothing? Who Is It, Give In To Me, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger in Moscow, Is It Scary. Yes, these are dark songs but that doesn't mean they aren't some of the greatest songs of his entire career. I didn't understand the thread to be a "let's discuss 1978-82" thread. OP made a statement that this was his most creative period, which I assume was with the intent to discuss whether we agree or not. So I don't think it is off topic if someone says they find the '90s period more creative. I am not sure why mentioning his '90s work is annoying to you.
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Post by Snow White on Jul 30, 2017 6:03:33 GMT
Just because Michael's 90s work wasn’t fun and carefree as the one in the 80s, it doesn't mean it's not real. It's ridiculous of some people wanting him to be like that his whole career, he said himself his 90s songs were the most honest and autobiographical ones he ever wrote. What's wrong with pouring all the anger, frustration, injustice and darkness into his body of work if that's how Michael was feeling at that time? If artists don't express their darkness into their pieces of work, what would they talk about then? Many if not all are tortured souls.
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Post by HIStoric on Jul 30, 2017 6:35:33 GMT
To me music isn't just about fun. Sometimes it is the dark things that are cathartic. Yes, a lot of his '90s work exist because of the horrible experiences he went through but then often the whole existence of bands are built on bad experiences. Would Nirvana have even existed if Kurt Cobain didn't have a crappy childhood and wasn't miserable? The same can be said of many, many bands. It is natural that artists would vent their real life experiences in their music - that's what makes them real. The great thing about MJ's art that there is something for everyone. You are more into careless, fun dance and pop tracks? Then you can go to the '80s stuff. But he didn't shy away to explore darker themes either and I love that material as well. Really? Nothing? Who Is It, Give In To Me, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger in Moscow, Is It Scary. Yes, these are dark songs but that doesn't mean they aren't some of the greatest songs of his entire career. Agree. Agree. Agree. x1000.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 8:46:35 GMT
respect77 I agree that Michael's earlier music (1978-1982) was lighter. However, it had just as much substance and expression as anything else that came later. The 'carefree' material largely makes up the 'Off The Wall' album, and shouldn't be used to judge this entire period. That being said, 'Working Day And Night', which speaks of the strains of a 9 to 5 ('Off The Wall' seems to be the antidote for this), and can be looked at as an extension of 'Things I Do For You' and 'She's Out Of My Life' (no, Michael didn't pen this, but he still identified to the point of being moved to tears) are exceptions to this.
Michael's first self written recording 'Blues Away' is about overcoming depression. He described it as someone who was 'smiling on the outside and crying on the inside'. The arrangement totally reflects this. It's taken a step further on 'That's What You Get For Being Polite', where that façade starts to slip after the instrumental, and a battle between light and airy, and serious and intense, ensues until the fade out. There's desperation in Michael's voice as he sings; 'Don't you know he cries!/Don't you know he's scared!' Yet, it reads like an agony aunt letter. Where the writer is using their 'friend' as a cover up, when they're really talking about themselves. In this case it's 'Jack'.
The songs 'Things I Do For You' and 'Bless His Soul' are more obvious in their approach, where he sings about being taken advantage of. The former marking his first openly angry song. Yes, 'Style Of Life' lyrically stated this emotion first, but the music completely glosses over that. 'Things I Do For You' matches the attitude! That funk! 'Bless His Soul', along with 'Sunset Driver', allude to 'Dangerous'!
In fact, I find the majority of the 'Triumph' album to be just as dark and overwhelming as 'Dangerous'. Only 3 songs depart from the main theme of heartbreak and distrust in relationships ('Can You Feel It', 'Everybody', and 'Give It Up'). He was also developing new soundscapes of horror on 'Heartbreak Hotel', which would inspire Rod Temperton to write 'Thriller'.
Some of Michael's biggest hits from that album dealt with pain on some level; 'Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' ('The pain is thunder!'), 'Billie Jean' - child paternity and stalking, 'Beat It' - gang violence. Even the title track is borderline demonic, mostly due to the speech at the end.
The difference between what I mentioned above, and what came after is that the earlier stuff was balanced out more evenly overall. Even the heavier stuff from that time was presented in a way that was easier to digest by the public at large. That doesn't make it any less intriguing. On the contrary, it makes for an interesting contrast. Even unreleased songs from this time such as 'The Man' and 'Sunset Driver', that do not fit any category, allow the listener to read between the lines to arrive at interesting possibilities. I personally think 'The Man' speaks of the Paradise Earth of Michael's Jehovah's Witness faith, and 'Sunset Driver' is a warning to younger brother Randy. That's just me. I could be wrong of course..
Each release after the early '80's became darker, offering little discretion or escape. 'Dangerous' sees Michael literally imprisoned behind a machine that was both self created and publicly enforced, on the album cover. His voice chokes with rage on what are supposed to be 'happy' songs such as 'She Drives Me Wild'.
Hearing Michael cuss on a track for the first time as a child was like a doomsday scenario. That's how I look at History. Again, I understand completely why those songs were written. It just seems that some people enjoy the idea of Michael being a tragic figure. That's what I don't understand. You compared him to Nirvana. I don't know much about them, or that kind of music, but wasn't the lead singer the one who hung himself?! The fact that Michael is being looked at in a similar fashion is troubling to say the least. I would rather he received some kind of help to uplift himself out of that frame of mind, rather than sharing it with fans who encourage him to dwell in that dangerous state.
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Post by HIStoric on Jul 30, 2017 10:34:26 GMT
Even unreleased songs from this time such as 'The Man' and 'Sunset Driver', that do not fit any category, allow the listener to read between the lines to arrive at interesting possibilities.
The Man isn't unreleased? That song was released on Paul McCartney's 1983 album Pipes of Peace... unless there's an unreleased solo recording by the same name that I've somehow never heard?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 10:53:10 GMT
HIStoric I meant released as a single with radio, or video play. Not buried as an album track.
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Post by HIStoric on Jul 30, 2017 11:00:44 GMT
HIStoric I meant released as a single with radio, or video play. Not buried as an album track. Oh okay. Well that still doesn't make it 'unreleased', but I get what you mean
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