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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 11:08:39 GMT
Many fans are unaware of 'The Man' which is a shame. I find it to be such a tender, melodic, and joyful song. Michael's voices oozes with the childlike wonder he was known for having! It's comparable to 'Someone In The Dark' and to some extent, 'Human Nature'.
Who do you think 'The Man' is speaking of? There are several possibilities, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of others first
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Post by SoCav on Jul 30, 2017 11:16:53 GMT
I think the distinction between being prolific and creative that Matty brought up is a nice one. I think he was at his most prolific from '78 to '89. It seems like he could just churn out a good to great song whenever he felt like it during this time. His released material was of an incredibly high standard. If I had to narrow down the period during which he was most creative musically, I'd probably make it '88 to '98. His work was more experimental and diverse during this time. Even after BOTDF he was still working on experimental tracks like In The Back.
At the same time, let's also not forget that he, for instance, already wrote Little Susie in the late '70s. Earth Song was written during the Bad tour. All in all, I basically think MJ had an incredible twenty year-run from 1978 to 1998 (from Destiny/OTW until BOTDF/some of the outtakes from that era).
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Post by respect77 on Jul 30, 2017 12:06:54 GMT
@mj83
I didn't say there was no lyrical substance in MJ's music before the 1990. I am also aware that his music always had a subtle dark streak - even the happy, dancy songs (eg. WBSS, Things I Do for You etc.). But while it is true that he explored darker themes before the '90s I think it his only really autobiographical work from that period is some songs on the Destiny album. Then, IMO, we have to wait until Dangerous for him to be really autobiographical again.
It's not about enjoyment of him being a tragic figure - it is accepting the fact that tragic experiences were also a part of his life. And if he wanted to express that in music and lyrics then I am all for it. Rather than him pretending that everything is alright and keep singing Rock with You when that's not the mood he was in.
I didn't compare him to Nirvana. The point was that some of the best songs of pop and rock music history were born out of desperation, negative experiences, so songs reflecting or being inspired by negative experiences are just as much of a natural part of artistic expression than songs about being happy, being in love etc. Kurt Cobain committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. I am not sure why you think that is relevant here. I did not compare MJ to him in terms of being suicidal or having the same state of mind. I simply pointed out that negative experiences are a part of artistic expression and there is nothing wrong with that. From that it doesn't follow that I assigned the exact same state of mind to MJ as to Cobain.
Yes, it would have been great if MJ had got help for some of his trauma but artists are artists because they are honest and genuine in their creation. So if an artist is in a dark place it will reflect on his art. I see no problem with that. And I don't think it is dwelling in anything. It is just accepting the realities of his life as they were and his right to address that in his art.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 12:46:44 GMT
respect77 Michael didn't need trauma as an excuse to have something to write about. Part of what separated him from other 'Pop' stars in the first place was his ability to tackle unconventional subject matters. In fact, I think the pain had the opposite effect; it allowed him to remain in a single space for over a decade. Poisoning his growth.
I don't see the gap in personal songs between 'Destiny' and 'Dangerous' either; 'Heartbreak Hotel', 'Wanna Be Startin' Somethin', 'Billie Jean', 'Leave Me Alone', and 'Dirty Diana' all come from painful personal experiences.
Yes, I understand that for many artists music is therapy. What happens beyond that though? Clearly it didn't work, otherwise he wouldn't have continued repeating the same message. When the negative outweighs the positive, it's a problem. The problem was never addressed in any effective way.
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Post by respect77 on Jul 30, 2017 13:50:13 GMT
But you are talking about therapy and venting someone's experiences in art as mutually exclusive. I don't think it is. IMO MJ did not not address his trauma with proper therapy because he substituted that with writing songs about it. He probably had other reasons for declining therapy (if he did).
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Post by Snow White on Jul 30, 2017 15:34:42 GMT
He was used and abused through out his life, it didn’t begin in 1993, imagine carrying out all that pain and suffering if he couldn't go to a therapist or psychologist like anyone else (some of his doctors have broken the confidentiality agreement.) With Destiny he began to write about those experiences but made it more obvious in his 90s songs. You could say HIStory and BOTDF are result of the allegations but those songs are also about the pain and suffering he had been carrying since his childhood. The human being and the artist were a result of what he went through all his life, not just being unfairly accused of that heinous crime and persecuted the rest of his life and in death.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 15:52:53 GMT
I'm coming into this thread late but nah.... His creative peak has to be 87-95 for me. While I find Off The Wall to be more of an artistic statement (Thriller is 100% safe pop magic). From the opening notes of Speed Demon to the final notes of Is It Scary define MJ at his absolute creative peak.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 16:19:03 GMT
Maybe the original poster can come back and explain the purpose of this thread? I'm completely lost. I thought it was to acknowledge Michael's artistic growth between the years of 1978 and 1982? Yet people are dismissing that time period as being 'careless safe pop', despite my many arguments to the contrary. Can't a separate thread be created for those who wish to celebrate Michael's '90's output? Otherwise I see this going nowhere...
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Post by Snow White on Jul 30, 2017 16:33:21 GMT
What's wrong with disagreeing with OP's opinion and stating the reasons for such disagreement?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 16:49:41 GMT
It's inconsiderate and disrespectful to bombard a thread with opposition to the original intent. We've barely scratched the surface of this time period (I personally would like to extend it to 1983). The way things are going, I don't think we will - which is a shame.
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Post by Invincible on Jul 30, 2017 16:51:47 GMT
Since it says the "height of his creativity" and not "1978-1982 appreciation thread" I think people can take it to whatever direction they want. Not all of us agree that this was the height of his creativity.
I don't agree with the OP either. I think his creativity only grew after Thriller and it kept growing for at least another decade.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 18:06:23 GMT
I reject the stereotype that an artist has to be a tortured soul in order to produce creative work.
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Post by Snow White on Jul 30, 2017 19:01:40 GMT
No, they don't have to but in Michael's case it wasn't a stereotype. He was a tortured soul ever since his parents forced him to carry the responsibility of supporting financially his family at the age of 5. No child deserves to bear such amount of pressure at that young age.
No one disputed here his work in 1978-1983 wasn't creative, it was indeed but at those years he began to prove himself what he was capable of. Being wiser and more experienced since the Bad era years prompted him to elevate his artistry in all the sense of the word, he depended less and on other people to tell him what to do with his music. He was the commander in chief and mastermind behind his creativity and success ever since that album. Well, he was the mastermind behind of his success and creativity on Thriller as well but Q still restrained him compared to the Bad album.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 19:20:09 GMT
Quincy encouraged Michael to write a rock song, and the result was the amazing classic 'Beat It'. How is that holding him back? They brought out the best in each other. Nobody forced Michael to work with him. In fact, it was Michael who sought him out during the making of 'The Wiz'. Which is another milestone yet discussed due to the derailing of this thread.
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Post by Snow White on Jul 30, 2017 19:37:48 GMT
Q encouraged him to do so but didn't tell him how, he wrote Beat It all by himself and also Q pushed him a lot to change Billie Jean's title to Not My Lover but Michael stood on his ground and the rest is HIStory. You're right no one forced Michael to work with him but he pushed himself in a way into his life and recomended himself as a producer: time.com/4135018/the-wiz-michael-jackson/
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