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Post by respect77 on Mar 23, 2018 16:56:09 GMT
^^ Don't you agree that saying things like the perpetrators in the Charlie Hebdo murders were within their rights to defend the Prophet this way or that honor killings are alright are worrying views? Why the quoutation marks? One such documentary isn't, though it talks about general problems as well, not only a few selected cases. However I presented some more material too. The first article is indeed about personal experience. Of a Muslim who can hardly be accused of anti-Muslim bias (and it is not about being anti-Muslim either). The second article I linked, however, is not anecdotical, but more a general study: www.cato.org/blog/muslim-immigration-integration-united-states-western-europeThere aren't more Muslims in the UK than in the USA. 0,9% of the US population is slightly more than 4,5% of the UK population as the US is more populous. I calculated around 2,786,635 Muslims in the UK and 2,931,472 in the USA. So it is actually a similar pool we are talking about. Yet, three times more joined ISIS from the UK than the US. Disputing what exactly? I am not sure what the story about no halal food served in US restaurants supposed to prove? That means that Muslims are worse integrated in the US? Or what exactly does it prove?
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 25, 2018 18:56:37 GMT
There aren't more Muslims in the UK than in the USA. 0,9% of the US population is slightly more than 4,5% of the UK population as the US is more populous. I calculated around 2,786,635 Muslims in the UK and 2,931,472 in the USA. So it is actually a similar pool we are talking about. Yet, three times more joined ISIS from the UK than the US. I didn't say there were more Muslims in the UK. The point I'm making is your referenced article compared bare numbers joining ISIS in a number of countries without even considering how many were there in the first place. It's selection bias. Regards halal, I don't know about you but I'd feel more like integrating in a country that made me feel welcome, that accomodated and respected my religious customs and didn't push me to the fringes of society. I think I'd want people to understand my religion and what it was about, have an awareness of it. We all need to be educated about each other, and look outwardly. This is said as somebody who does not belong to any religion. And I don't want to avoid your direct question, so of course those extremist views are abhorrent to me. I realise the quotation marks could have been misleading - what I was trying to illustrate is that whatever some people said, and others drew conclusions from, it just doesn't add up to this 'well known fact' you've pushed.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 26, 2018 4:22:16 GMT
There aren't more Muslims in the UK than in the USA. 0,9% of the US population is slightly more than 4,5% of the UK population as the US is more populous. I calculated around 2,786,635 Muslims in the UK and 2,931,472 in the USA. So it is actually a similar pool we are talking about. Yet, three times more joined ISIS from the UK than the US. I didn't say there were more Muslims in the UK.Β The point I'm making is your referenced article compared bare numbers joining ISIS in a number of countries without even considering how many were there in the first place.Β It's selection bias. How did it not consider how many Muslims were there in the first place? Like I showed you in the previous post there are about the same number of Muslims in the US and the UK (actually slightly more in the USA), so we are talking about a similar pool of people - thus pretty much a fair comparation. And from the UK there were about three times more joining ISIS than from the USA. As for halal food. I am sure there are a lot more factors of integration than the availability of halal food. Well, let's see the UK then and let's see polls, rather than what you apparently feel are cherry-picked interviews to "push" an agenda or something. (Although ZDF is hardly Germany's Fox News.) www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlwww.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.htmlwww.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 26, 2018 19:43:14 GMT
As for halal food. I am sure there are a lot more factors of integration than the availability of halal food. So now you acknowledge it is a factor, just insistent that it is not the only one - which of course I never asserted. I'm not here to bicker with you, nor get personal which I'd be inclined to start doing. I would just advise you to consider that opposing views to yours can be credible too and go with love.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 26, 2018 20:09:07 GMT
I never said halal food isn't one factor. Of the many, many. I simply said I don't see the point of your story in the context of this conversation because providing halal food alone doesn't make a country better at integrating people.
As for considering opposing views, you have been just as dismissive of my POV, so it goes both ways then.
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 26, 2018 20:30:19 GMT
As for considering opposing views, you have been just as dismissive of my POV, so it goes both ways then. Merely to redress the balance when you came out firing with how in denial I was. I did assert I respected your view.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 26, 2018 20:45:39 GMT
Well you came across as condescending too in your first replies to my post. Kind of trying to police what is appropriate for me to say. That's how it came across.
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 27, 2018 13:20:19 GMT
Well you came across as condescending too in your first replies to my post. Kind of trying to police what is appropriate for me to say. That's how it came across. Because you generalised a whole race of people whether it was your intention or not. I'll call that out all day long.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 27, 2018 15:15:25 GMT
Well you came across as condescending too in your first replies to my post. Kind of trying to police what is appropriate for me to say. That's how it came across. Because you generalised a whole race of people whether it was your intention or not. I'll call that out all day long. 1) Islam is not a race. 2) Criticizing Islam's teachings or talking about how those teachings relate to certain principles of the secular state and how that plays a part in integration is not racism, no matter how much some people try to spin it into that. 3) Anyone who knows me will attest to the fact eg. from the many discussions from the atheist thread here on MJJC that I criticize Christianity and those who subscribe to fundamentalist Christian views just as much as I criticize Islam and those Muslims who subscribe to certain worrying views (without quotation marks!). Their race doesn't play any part in that. You are the one generalizing Muslims as a certain race when in reality they can be any race. 4) No ideology will ever be above criticism or scrutiny as far as I am concerned and Islam is an ideology.
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 28, 2018 13:05:16 GMT
Because you generalised a whole race of people whether it was your intention or not. I'll call that out all day long. 1) Islam is not a race. 2) Criticizing Islam's teachings or talking about how those teachings relate to certain principles of the secular state and how that plays a part in integration is not racism, no matter how much some people try to spin it into that. 3) Anyone who knows me will attest to the fact eg. from the many discussions from the atheist thread here on MJJC that I criticize Christianity and those who subscribe to fundamentalist Christian views just as much as I criticize Islam and those Muslims who subscribe to certain worrying views (without quotation marks!). Their race doesn't play any part in that. You are the one generalizing Muslims as a certain race when in reality they can be any race. 4) No ideology will ever be above criticism or scrutiny as far as I am concerned and Islam is an ideology. Generalising any group of people is irresponsible whether based on physically, or socially, distinct characteristics. You know that was my point, you are just being argumentative. I never called you racist or suggested that you criticised Islamic teachings. I already explained those quotation marks, and even admitted that it was ambigious. Sad that you'd choose to ignore that and recycle it. Are you done now?
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Post by respect77 on Mar 28, 2018 14:59:07 GMT
And I've said aready I didn't mean all Muslims. Sad you choose to ignore that and the full context of what I said.
Yes, I'm "done now". ("Thanks" for being condescending again.)
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Post by bedroom on Apr 2, 2018 15:09:39 GMT
n/m.
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