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Post by funksoldier on Mar 17, 2018 0:03:12 GMT
Today, I was watching the news and there I saw what Horst Seehofer (CDU) said. He wanted us to know that "islam doesn't belong to germany." That germany is a christian country. I know that. But here's what I think is wrong with his statement and mindset. I mean, look, we got so many people from different cultures in our country, germany is a multicultural country and I think that you can't have so many different cultures in your country and just take from it what YOU like or need. That's not how it works tho, not at all. Like, you can't say: "Share your food, clothes etc with us, but keep your religion out of it." No, that's not how it's supposed to be. What does he wanna do with the none christians? Should they become christians? I don't have anything against any religion, and the fact is, that we got so many cultures in our country, we got jews, muslims, africans, greeks, everything! And if you say, certain parts of their culture doesn't belong here, you basically tell them they will NEVER fully belong here, unless they take on YOUR culture. And this is not what a multicultural country looks like. You can't nitpick the things you like from a culture and spit on the rest, 'cause you don't agree. That's disrespectful.
In germany you can't say: There's this ONE culture and EVERYONE should go by that. No, 'cause, the truth is, germany is not only ONE culture. Germany is islam, judaism, buddhism, hinduism. So many different things, coming from different cultures. There's not that ONE thing. Germany basically only exists because of so many different cultures, take them away and we are left with almost nothing. What this dude says is wrong on so many levels, but what do I expect from an old fart like him? I mean, it's almost comical because this man is a living cliché.
What do my fellow germans think about that? If you heard it........
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Mar 17, 2018 6:53:40 GMT
I know about Horst Seehofer, he is the biggest German supporter of Viktor Orbán, the prime minister of my country (Hungary) who is a wannabe dictator. Orbán has just openly threatened the opposition and anyone opposing him that he will make them pay "morally, politically and legally" after the elections on April 8, if he wins. Whatever that means, but it looks like an open threat to people who disagree with him. I think he is actually clinically insane now, and definitely a fascist. But I digress.
Regarding Islam in Europe. I don't mind immigrants coming to Europe, but it makes me a bit uneasy to see fundamentalist religion spread so much - and in the West that means Islam that is brought in by immigrants. Here in the East it means fundamentalist Christianity being on the rise as a reaction to the "Islamist threat". (Ironically, fundamentalist Christianity is more in agreement with Islam on a lot of issues than it is with liberals, for example.)
I am for enlightened, secular states. A secular state means that everyone is free to practice their religion freely and I am all for that. Whether Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu etc. And of course everyone is free to be non-religious too. I think the worry regarding Islam is, that the Muslims who come to Europe tend to take their religion very seriously and many mosques in the West are sponsored by fundamentalists - such as the Saudi wahhabi. So I think this is the worry regarding Islam: what if on the long term such fundamentalist Islam will rise in Europe due to Middle-Eastern immigration and also the demographic processes? Will that eventually threaten the secular state in Europe?
Of course, it is a long term worry and I have no idea what is the solution. Disccrimination based on religion is definitely not the answer. But what is? As I see it, in the USA the nature of Islam is completely different than it is in Europe. American Muslims are a lot better integrated into society. Here in Europe they create their own small societies and often refuse to integrate. It's probably due to the different society in the USA and in Europe - America being this naturally multicultural, multiracial society, while Europe is made of nation states (with their own differences), its native nations are racially/culturally rather homogenous. So when immigrants come in they find it more difficult to integrate into a very different culture, nation, mentality - so they rather create their own parallel societies where they feel well.
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Post by funksoldier on Mar 19, 2018 3:03:04 GMT
^^ I'm for secular states too. But the thing is, that there are muslims living in germany for decades, and some of them believe in their religion and if people like Seehofer say, this doesn't belong to germany, he says, that they are not equal and that they'll never fully belong here, because they're religion isn't a part of our society. That's what I got a problem with. The muslims in germany don't want an islamic state, they just want to be treated equally, but they're not. A couple days ago some nazis burned down a mosque in berlin. People act like the refugees are the problem when in reality, it's the nazis who are burning shit down. They even burn down refugee homes.
What I'm trying to say is, people are more afraid of islam when the real danger over here in germany are the nazis. I've seen a lot coming from these bastards it's pretty exhaustive to go against this, a shitload of work our politicians won't do, because I believe, we still got many nazis in our political system. People are afraid of refugees and they didn't even do shit, but the nazis can wander around for ten years, murdering people from turkish heritage and nobody really did anything against this. But, yeah, let's shit ourselves because of refugees and their religion.....
I couldn't care less if we got mosques in germany, like who gives a shit? We still got churches and, to be honest, I'm not religious tho, and I find it silly that people still go there because there's so much hypocrisy going on in both the mosques and christian churches. But whatever peanut butters your jelly, right? It's a fact that germany ain't just a christian country, we got people with other religious believes living here and that makes germany a multi religious country.
I'm going against Seehofers statement that islam doesn't belong here. It's wrong and insulting to the muslim community.
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Post by funksoldier on Mar 19, 2018 3:11:47 GMT
I know about Horst Seehofer, he is the biggest German supporter of Viktor Orbán, the prime minister of my country (Hungary) who is a wannabe dictator. Orbán has just openly threatened the opposition and anyone opposing him that he will make them pay "morally, politically and legally" after the elections on April 8, if he wins. Whatever that means, but it looks like an open threat to people who disagree with him. I think he is actually clinically insane now, and definitely a fascist. But I digress. Regarding Islam in Europe. I don't mind immigrants coming to Europe, but it makes me a bit uneasy to see fundamentalist religion spread so much - and in the West that means Islam that is brought in by immigrants. Here in the East it means fundamentalist Christianity being on the rise as a reaction to the "Islamist threat". (Ironically, fundamentalist Christianity is more in agreement with Islam on a lot of issues than it is with liberals, for example.) I am for enlightened, secular states. A secular state means that everyone is free to practice their religion freely and I am all for that. Whether Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu etc. And of course everyone is free to be non-religious too. I think the worry regarding Islam is, that the Muslims who come to Europe tend to take their religion very seriously and many mosques in the West are sponsored by fundamentalists - such as the Saudi wahhabi. So I think this is the worry regarding Islam: what if on the long term such fundamentalist Islam will rise in Europe due to Middle-Eastern immigration and also the demographic processes? Will that eventually threaten the secular state in Europe? Of course, it is a long term worry and I have no idea what is the solution. Disccrimination based on religion is definitely not the answer. But what is? As I see it, in the USA the nature of Islam is completely different than it is in Europe. American Muslims are a lot better integrated into society. Here in Europe they create their own small societies and often refuse to integrate. It's probably due to the different society in the USA and in Europe - America being this naturally multicultural, multiracial society, while Europe is made of nation states (with their own differences), its native nations are racially/culturally rather homogenous. So when immigrants come in they find it more difficult to integrate into a very different culture, nation, mentality - so they rather create their own parallel societies where they feel well. To the red: I don't think it will happen. Like I said in my other post, we already got muslims living here and nothing happened. I know that the terrorists in syria want to make europe an islamic state, but honestly? They are dumb as shit and crazy like Hitler tho. They'll never get to that point, so the fear of europe becoming an islamic state is not to be taken serious. I mean, Hitler demonized Jews and it worked perfectly, people got scared of a thing that never happened. It's the same with muslims now, people are afraid of things that'll never ever happen.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Mar 19, 2018 6:19:17 GMT
I don't disagree that Islam belongs to Germany just like other religions do. Every and any religion should be safe to practice in a secular state - as long as they aren't doing criminal things. (Isn't Scientology banned in Germany, though, because they were deemed to cross that line?)
It's just that they should be kept out of the state: religious dogma shouldn't play any role in what the laws are etc. My worry regarding Islam comes from the fact there is a huge difference between Islam and Christianity regarding their attitude to politics. And I am talking about its core teachings that are deemed unquestionable by the followers of the religion. Sure, Christianity was largely politicized throughout the centuries and played a big political role, shaping laws and state policies. However, it doesn't follow from its core teachings. In fact, Jesus was apolitical. He distanced himself from politics. ("Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".) He didn't order his followers to take over the state.
It's very different in Islam. Muhammad was a warlord and a politician, not an apolitical hippie like Jesus. And Islam does order its followers to take over the state once the country has Muslim majority. Then they are ordered to apply Sharia law as the state law. Christianity doesn't have any such thing and that is a very important difference between Christianity and Islam, that I think is a mistake to overlook. Sharia is very unique to Islam. Christianity has its set of rules but it doesn't say you have to force it on outsiders and apply it as state law. It's another matter that in practice Christians do try to do that. Eg. evangelicals in the USA or Africa. Or religious nuts in my country Hungary, for that matter. Which is ironic, because these right wing populists who are in the government here now threaten with the danger of Sharia (while there are hardly any Muslims here) and use that to strengthen the Christian fundamentalist influence in state laws (for example, it was recently put into the Constitution that marriage is between one man and one woman - an obvious Christian influence). So it is complicated because Christianity can behave just like Islam does politically - and it did a lot historically and it still does at times. But the thing is it doesn't actually follow from its core teachings. You can get rid of Christian political ambitions without it really changing the essence of the religion.
However with Islam there is no room to argue for that. Sharia is a very much integral part of it. It is clear on the fact that Islam is as much a set of state laws as it is a religion. I went on the website of the Muslim community here some time ago to see what they say about certain issues. They are considered moderate Muslims, yet even they say that once a country is Muslim majority, Sharia should be applied as the state law.
The way I see it, it is not a Christianity vs. Islam culture war (like the right wing populists are trying to frame it). In reality, I think it is really liberal-secular values that became very fragile and under attack - from all sides: right wing populists, fundamentalist Christianity and Islam alike (which are actually closer to one another than to the idea of a liberal-secular state). There is a huge dilemma here, because the idea of liberal-secularism is that "sure, budy practice whatever religion you want, live and let live". That should be fine. But what if the followers of certain religions (be it Islam or fundamentalist Christianity) aren't satisfied with that and once they get enough power they will turn this liberalism against gaining power and eventually abolishing the liberal-secular state?
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 19, 2018 21:02:22 GMT
I think the worry regarding Islam is, that the Muslims who come to Europe tend to take their religion very seriously and many mosques in the West are sponsored by fundamentalists - such as the Saudi wahhabi. So I think this is the worry regarding Islam: what if on the long term such fundamentalist Islam will rise in Europe due to Middle-Eastern immigration and also the demographic processes? Will that eventually threaten the secular state in Europe? Of course, it is a long term worry and I have no idea what is the solution. Disccrimination based on religion is definitely not the answer. But what is? As I see it, in the USA the nature of Islam is completely different than it is in Europe. American Muslims are a lot better integrated into society. Here in Europe they create their own small societies and often refuse to integrate. It's probably due to the different society in the USA and in Europe - America being this naturally multicultural, multiracial society, while Europe is made of nation states (with their own differences), its native nations are racially/culturally rather homogenous. So when immigrants come in they find it more difficult to integrate into a very different culture, nation, mentality - so they rather create their own parallel societies where they feel well. Perhaps you're making sweeping generalisations for a reason but I've known many different families across two generations of Muslims in Scotland (a country in Europe) and that is not my experience at all. Scotland is a wonderfully diverse, multi-cultural place where Muslims - and other religions and races - consider themselves just as Scottish as anyone else and people voluntarily, happily integrate with each other socially and in business. Your point of view is disappointing to hear. It's absolutely not my experience of living in Europe or of Muslims.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 20, 2018 4:51:13 GMT
I didn't say it's all Muslims. But there IS an issue with integration. Watch this documentary. This is what I mean by issues with integration. Again, I didn't say it's all Muslims, but denial about a problem won't help to solve problems either.
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 21, 2018 19:39:51 GMT
I didn't say it's all Muslims. But there IS an issue with integration. Watch this documentary. This is what I mean by issues with integration. Again, I didn't say it's all Muslims, but denial about a problem won't help to solve problems either. I'd just be careful about using phrases like "the Muslims who come to Europe tend to..." or "they".
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Post by respect77 on Mar 21, 2018 21:25:12 GMT
I think from the context it's pretty clear I didn't say it's all Muslims. Of course, it's difficult to tell how many of European Muslims take Islam way too seriously, but the problem exists and I'd say it's pretty wide spread if when they go to a German school and ask Muslim students about Charlie Hebdo or honor killings the students give the kind of answers that you see in the documentary. Not in Europe, but there was a Pew poll across many Muslim nations a few years ago about general attitudes in the Muslim world. In many Muslim countries a large majority of people held beliefs like apostates should be killed, for example. I think in Egypt it was like 80 percent. It was shocking, to be honest. ETA: Here is the poll I'm talking about. www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 12:20:39 GMT
How quick Germans forget, they act like they are all accepting now and big itme social justice warriors.
The fact of the matter, is that Merkel is a commie East German who is so politically correct it is untrue and she is unpopular. Nearly every German I have met havs been like Schwartser this and Schwartz that around me (And I am only part Maori, not African Black). After all the country did have the Nazis just 75 years ago, a country that was complicit in murdering Jews, Poles, Gypsies and despising any race but their own. It has hard to turn your country from 100% Racist to 100% unracist in a few generations, the stain of Nazism and Racial and Religious Intolerance will burn for ever.
Then again it does not help most of Western Europe have imported tons of intolerant and unintegratable Muslims and others who want to keep their cultures and bludge of the host state as much as humanly possible. Softly softly people, limp writised pinko politicians and political correctness have enabled this climate and culture diversity is leading to cultural replacement. I am all for immigration, but immigrants should adopt and adapt to their new home and progress with it, no go backwards.
I know that may be offensive but it is the truth.
Remember the migrants of the pre 1970 period, would often assimilate and adjust to their new homeland. America and my country are good examples, People from all parts of Europe come in, learn English and live life the Kiwi way. Same in the USA, between 1750 and 1950 waves of Germans, Irish, British, Jews, Slavs, Italians, Puerto Ricans and many others came to the USA, learnt English and the American way and became Americans. They moved off the bottom rungs of society and became integrated into mainstream society. Italian Americans are so mainstream now, the speak English and mostly resent the mafia stereotypes in the media, just like Irish Americans are tired of being labelled drunks and leprechauns.
Compare this to our Pacific Island migrants, Muslims, Somalians and Asians that have come since the 1970s, they stay in their own ethnic ghettos, living a low standard of life, learning little if any English and wonder why they are still at the bottom. It is because governments now do not make immigrants integrate like the governments of the pre 1970 era.
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 22, 2018 20:10:39 GMT
I think from the context it's pretty clear I didn't say it's all Muslims. Of course, it's difficult to tell how many of European Muslims take Islam way too seriously, but the problem exists and I'd say it's pretty wide spread if when they go to a German school and ask Muslim students about Charlie Hebdo or honor killings the students give the kind of answers that you see in the documentary. Not in Europe, but there was a Pew poll across many Muslim nations a few years ago about general attitudes in the Muslim world. In many Muslim countries a large majority of people held beliefs like apostates should be killed, for example. I think in Egypt it was like 80 percent. It was shocking, to be honest. ETA: Here is the poll I'm talking about. www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/I don't even think it's anywhere near a majority, either. Not in my experience living in Scotland. Maybe there are problems in Germany, I don't know. I maintain that's a really provocative and irresponsible use of language.
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Post by funksoldier on Mar 22, 2018 22:10:33 GMT
How quick Germans forget, they act like they are all accepting now and big tme social justice warriors. The fact of the matter, is that erkel is a commie East German who is so politically correct it is untrue and she is unpopular. Nearly every German I have met havs been like Schwartser this and Schwartz that around me (And I am only part Maori, not African negro). After all the country did have the Nazis just 75 years ago, a country that was complicit in murdering Jews, Poles, Gypsies and despising any race but their own. It has hard to turn your country from 100% Racist to 100% unracist in a few generations, the stain of Nazism and Racial and Religious Intolerance will birn for ever. Then again it does not help most of Western Europe have imported tons of intolerant and unintegratable Muslims and others who want to keep their cultures and bludge of the host state as much as humanly possible. Softly softly people, limp writised pinko politicians and political correctness have enabled this climate and culture diversity is leading to cultural replacement. I am al for immigration, but immigrants should adopt and adapt to their new home and progress with it, no go backwards. I know that may be offensive but it is the truth. Yes germany still has a big nazi problem. And the politicians don't want to see that and that's the problem we have in germany. It's scary to live there not because of the immigrants, but because of the nazis.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 1:05:57 GMT
Interesting too, is that Eastern Europe had closed it's doors to all these migrants and refugees too, and they do not have the same issues, that mass immigration has caused in Western Europe.
The fact remains, is that Islam like any other dogmatic religion like Christianity, Hindu, Bhuddist, Jewish etc has so many different interpretations and the extremes shine through in every case with the media. Right wing Christian wack jobs and money cults get media inches, but Islamic terrorism has a nother dimension, the press and individuals can use the ethnic, religious and cultural differences of most Muslims as an excuse to talk racist crap, just like Donald Trump does and gets away with.
The fact remains, is that we all want to be social justice warriors, but in reality the White race and of that (North and Western Europeans of North of the Alps backgrounds, no further east than the Elbe, dominate the world). It is merely the hardcore and entrenched racism of the pre 1970 period has been dismantled, but soft racism and prejudice is still thriving and little is being done to shut racial extremists, High profile terrorism attacks and groups like Isis and Al Qaeda, seem to give the white racists free licence to bash all Islam and tar everyone with that same brush. This may lead the moderate Muslims to get more angry and join their extremist bretheren rather than support the whites.
The fact that Populist politicians that trade on a platform of Pork Barrel Politics can get elected and hold power is symptomatic of the new white based racism, Donald Trump is living proof. Also the gulf between the Left and Right wing has got so far, you have two sides who can't satnd each other and Merkel's extreme left wing policies have made Germany suffer, the powerhouse and bank of the EU is failing. Sadly some Germans think state based racism may change this.
The fact remains is that innocent lives are affected negatively no matter what so called well meaning Politicians and Terrorist groups from any religion get up to.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Mar 23, 2018 3:27:27 GMT
I think from the context it's pretty clear I didn't say it's all Muslims. Of course, it's difficult to tell how many of European Muslims take Islam way too seriously, but the problem exists and I'd say it's pretty wide spread if when they go to a German school and ask Muslim students about Charlie Hebdo or honor killings the students give the kind of answers that you see in the documentary. Not in Europe, but there was a Pew poll across many Muslim nations a few years ago about general attitudes in the Muslim world. In many Muslim countries a large majority of people held beliefs like apostates should be killed, for example. I think in Egypt it was like 80 percent. It was shocking, to be honest. ETA: Here is the poll I'm talking about. www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/I don't even think it's anywhere near a majority, either. Not in my experience living in Scotland. Maybe there are problems in Germany, I don't know. I maintain that's a really provocative and irresponsible use of language. That European Muslims are worse integrated than American Muslims is a well known fact that is researched by sociologists. Which was the point of what I said. You can be in denial about it but that's a fact. It's discussed over several platforms, even among Muslims, like in this article: www.fpri.org/2016/04/us-doesnt-muslim-problem-europe/Like this article I too mentioned that the root of the difference is probably that America is a more naturally multicultural, multiracial society while Europe is (even though it's changing) still very homogeneous racially, culturally and has more difficulty accepting and integrating other cultures. So it's not like I even blamed it on Muslims. But to deny the integration problem in Europe is wrong, IMO. That's not your experience, fine. But your experience is just that. Statistics show that there IS an integration problem in Europe. Eg. the article above (written by a Muslim) mentions how many European Muslims joined ISIS. Or the video I linked shows worrying attitudes in Muslims living in Germany etc. I think there is goodwill in most Western European countries, eg. Germany, but it's just not the same kind of society as the USA and that won't change overnight and you can't expect them to. Also maybe the sheer number of Muslims coming to Europe all at once is also a problem. I think in the USA it's a lot smaller number that doesn't overwhelm the system like it does in many European countries. The USA is also more selective about who they let in, I think. The German documentary that I linked in talks about the difference between Canada and Germany handling the migrant issue and they consider Canada a more positive example. They vet each individual thoroughly and they follow up on their integration process and really make sure the people they let in are willing to integrate. The problem with that is that you can do that when there are a couple of thousands coming a year, but not when a million. ETA: Here is a good article on the reasons why there is an integration issue with Muslims in Europe but there isn't the USA: www.cato.org/blog/muslim-immigration-integration-united-states-western-europeOne interesting aspect in the article that I didn't think of before is the role of religion in general in American society vs. European. As a secularist myself I didn't think about it before, but yes, I guess it is true that while the USA isn't a Muslim country and there is a seperation of church and state (well, that is when fundamentalist Christians don't try to sneak their agenda into laws, but generally and in principle the seperation is there) but the USA being a more religious society it is still less of a culture-shock for religious Muslims than the more secularist/atheist Europe.
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Post by ChrisC on Mar 23, 2018 14:26:30 GMT
Statistics show that there IS an integration problem in Europe. I'm prepared to accept that may be the case even if the evidence you've given is very selective. I mean, so they asked some Muslims in Germany and someone concluded that the views those people interviewed expressed were 'worrying'? It's hardly proven fact, or demonstrative of the entire European continent, which is how you're trying to present it. And not to be awkward but I looked at that article you've picked to show us and the first paragraph is almost exclusively about that person's personal experience (go figure!): "I’m first generation American, with a Pakistani-born father. My dad and his older brother both left Pakistan at the same time, but that is where their similarities end. My uncle, an engineer working for the German Space Agency, never felt German. His son avoided mandatory German military service and struggled with finding his identity. My father, on the other hand, came to the United States on a Fulbright scholarship, ran a successful business, raised two sons (one of whom joined the United States Navy), and proudly votes in every election be it local, state or federal. The contrast between these two brothers is why Europe has a Muslim problem." I can say just the same here, I know several Muslim families that proudly vote in every election, who pay taxes and run businesses and actively contribute to their local community. As you've pointed out, one person's personal experience is no basis for overall fact. Then it goes on to discuss the numbers of Muslims going off to support ISIS, your article quotes estimated numbers in the US as "only" 250 whereas in the UK it gives that number as 760. But surely we have to consider the number of Muslims living in the respective countries too? There are far more Muslims living in the United Kingdom, as a percentage of the overall population, than there are in the USA. It is estimated that around 4.5% of the overall British population subscribe to Islam where in the US it's thought to be less than a percent. Perhaps a more interesting figure would be the percentage of Muslims in the respective countries leaving to support ISIS? It irks me that you think some research that's been done is representation of undisputed fact. On a quick Google search there I saw articles disputing it. Have the view you have, I respect it, but don't accuse me of denying facts. On another personal note, I travelled to around five different states of the USA with a friend of mine who is a Muslim in 2014. We spent close to a month there and ate out every day, several times a day - no single food outlet we came across catered to his dietary requirements as a Muslim. No single supermarket we shopped in catered in any way to Muslims. When he enquired at the various businesses as to whether any of the food served was halal not a single person appeared to even know what this meant! When he asked at a popular amusement park in a southern state whether any of the food being served was halal - this male was dressed in chef whites - the man hilariously replied "no it's chicken or beef". This contrasts quite strongly with my experience in Europe (lets keep on generalising) where many caterers, restaurants and popular fast food spots are indeed entirely halal or at least offer halal options. I only have to walk across the street here and I can buy all kinds of halal meat - a big supermarket chain in the UK too (not a specialised butcher, though we have those too). I'd say general perception of what halal is and awareness of Islamic customs is quite high here. It did not appear so in the USA. Again, just my personal experience.
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