|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 28, 2020 17:13:17 GMT
Someone raised this question on LSA: is it true that Quincy Jones did the violin part in Billie Jean? Apparently he makes this claim in his Netflix doc. I don't think it matters a lot, he's got co-producing credit so he might as well have added that little part. But then what made me unsure about it is listening to Demo 2 where the violin part is already there, although played with synth, I guess. But the musical part is actually already there. 1:45 etc. Also on Demo 3.
So my question is as to whether someone has information if MJ did Demo 2 and Demo 3 already with Q or all demos were done before the song was taken to him? When he says he did the violin part does he just mean that he exchanged the synth sound with violins? Because if so, that sounds a bit misleading.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nighty on Jul 28, 2020 23:19:54 GMT
When you (or Quincy, rather) say "violin", are we talking about the string melody in the second bridge or are we talking about the added violins on top of the choruses and the guitar solo part? Cause I can buy the second one - that Quincy might have added the violins on top of the synth pads. Q is a classically trained composer with an affinity for string arrangements, after all...
|
|
|
|
Post by SoCav on Jul 29, 2020 0:08:32 GMT
When you (or Quincy, rather) say "violin", are we talking about the string melody in the second bridge or are we talking about the added violins on top of the choruses and the guitar solo part? Cause I can buy the second one - that Quincy might have added the violins on top of the synth pads. Q is a classically trained composer with an affinity for string arrangements, after all... Agreed. I think it's well-established MJ wrote all the parts, including the string parts, for Billie Jean. Quincy's additions, if any, would have been minimal. I don't recall Quincy saying this in the doco though, even though I listened extra closely during the MJ section due to all the salty bullshit he's been spewing over the past couple of years. I'd imagine this would have jumped out at me, but maybe I missed it. I mainly remember thinking the segment on his work with MJ was very short given its significance, and that it was more a case of him glossing over things or subtly throwing shade (by highlighting others' and his own role in the project but barely saying anything about MJ) rather than him making dubious claims. Surprisingly, he also agreed to be interviewed for Sonic Fantasy. I wonder how that turned out (Marcos indicated it was positive). It's really a shame that he turned into such a bitter old man. |
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 29, 2020 4:05:31 GMT
I don't recall Quincy saying this in the doco though, even though I listened extra closely during the MJ section due to all the salty bullshit he's been spewing over the past couple of years. I'd imagine this would have jumped out at me, but maybe I missed it. OK, I checked again the person who started the thread said he heard "from someone" Quincy added the violin parts in DSTYGE. It seems it is someone on the Internet. It was another poster who said Quincy said in his Netflix doc he added orchestrations to MJ songs (not specifically the violin part to Billie Jean). So it just mixed up in my mind.
And this was an answer, which of course is stupid ("he came up with the whole damn song").
By the 2nd demo Billie Jean was the complete song. No wonder MJ was reluctant to give Quincy co-procuding credits on that one.
|
|
|
|
Post by ghost on Jul 29, 2020 5:40:25 GMT
Billie Jean is a thorn in Quincy's side, as it is widely considered to be the most lauded, iconic and perfect composition on all the QJ produced albums, and he actually had hardly anything to do with it. I think if he added a lone hi-hat at 3min27secs into the song he would want the world to know about it.
His two main suggestions for the song were to trim the intro (thank God MJ stood his ground on that) and change the title to Not My Lover (can you imagine?).
|
|
|
|
Post by SoCav on Jul 29, 2020 8:17:07 GMT
Billie Jean is a thorn in Quincy's side, as it is widely considered to be the most lauded, iconic and perfect composition on all the QJ produced albums, and he actually had hardly anything to do with it. I think if he added a lone hi-hat at 3min27secs into the song he would want the world to know about it.His two main suggestions for the song were to trim the intro (thank God MJ stood his ground on that) and change the title to Not My Lover (can you imagine?).  No doubt. He was definitely off on Billie Jean, but at the same time I don't think his thoughts were that unreasonable. Thriller was originally way too long, and they had to trim a lot of material. The length of that intro is unorthodox (which of course is part of what makes it so great), so it's not that odd that he suggested to cut it. Of course, MJ completely made the right call, but I'm glad the other songs were trimmed (and IIRC a minute or so was still shaved off the end of Billie Jean). Personally I think it would have harmed the flow of the album if all those songs had been much longer. That's actually something that I think negatively affected Dangerous and HIStory, as incredible as both are. The best records are often born out of creative tension between the different people working on a project, so I think it's good MJ had a sparring partner for those albums. What's going to work is unpredictable and calls/suggestions that seem ridiculous in hindsight are going to be made along the way. But it's a shame that instead of just laughing about these things ("yeah, I sure got that one wrong!"), Quincy is just so embittered now. I still wonder what caused that change. I mean, in those interviews on the 2001 Special Edition, he still seemed very respectful and honest. I remember he talked about MJ not wanting to cut the intro because that's what made him want to dance, and that you can't argue with that if Michael Jackson says it. You'd think people mellow out with age, but Quincy seems to follow the opposite trajectory. |
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 29, 2020 11:33:30 GMT
Slightly off topic, but I recently saw a video of Quincy belittling Prince's piano playing. It was turned into a meme by Prince fans where snippets of Quincy talking down on Prince's piano playing are interspersed with Prince doing great piano runs. To me it was another confirmation that Quincy has a tendency to be jealous of others and/or snobby towards pop artists. He was like "I don't think of Prince as a real piano player. Someone like Herbie Hancock is a real piano player." It wasn't even a recent interview so it can't be blamed on his age. It looked early 90s. So it's not just MJ that he belittled.
|
|
TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,484 
|
Post by TonyR on Jul 29, 2020 11:37:03 GMT
Billie Jean is a thorn in Quincy's side, as it is widely considered to be the most lauded, iconic and perfect composition on all the QJ produced albums, and he actually had hardly anything to do with it. I think if he added a lone hi-hat at 3min27secs into the song he would want the world to know about it.His two main suggestions for the song were to trim the intro (thank God MJ stood his ground on that) and change the title to Not My Lover (can you imagine?). No doubt. He was definitely off on Billie Jean, but at the same time I don't think his thoughts were that unreasonable. Thriller was originally way too long, and they had to trim a lot of material. The length of that intro is unorthodox (which of course is part of what makes it so great), so it's not that odd that he suggested to cut it. Of course, MJ completely made the right call, but I'm glad the other songs were trimmed (and IIRC a minute or so was still shaved off the end of Billie Jean). Personally I think it would have harmed the flow of the album if all those songs had been much longer. That's actually something that I think negatively affected Dangerous and HIStory, as incredible as both are. The best records are often born out of creative tension between the different people working on a project, so I think it's good MJ had a sparring partner for those albums. What's going to work is unpredictable and calls/suggestions that seem ridiculous in hindsight are going to be made along the way. But it's a shame that instead of just laughing about these things ("yeah, I sure got that one wrong!"), Quincy is just so embittered now. I still wonder what caused that change. I mean, in those interviews on the 2001 Special Edition, he still seemed very respectful and honest. I remember he talked about MJ not wanting to cut the intro because that's what made him want to dance, and that you can't argue with that if Michael Jackson says it. You'd think people mellow out with age, but Quincy seems to follow the opposite trajectory. I think whoever's call it was to trim LIML made the wrong call. I really started loving that song when Rod released the uncut version. It must have been a late decision as the album sleeve shows the full lyrics. |
|
|
|
Post by SoCav on Jul 29, 2020 12:05:22 GMT
Slightly off topic, but I recently saw a video of Quincy belittling Prince's piano playing. It was turned into a meme by Prince fans where snippets of Quincy talking down on Prince's piano playing are interspersed with Prince doing great piano runs. To me it was another confirmation that Quincy has a tendency to be jealous of others and/or snobby towards pop artists. He was like "I don't think of Prince as a real piano player. Someone like Herbie Hancock is a real piano player." It wasn't even a recent interview so it can't be blamed on his age. It looked early 90s. So it's not just MJ that he belittled. I know the video you're talking about. The funny thing with that clip is that it was not made by fans. It was posted by Scott McCullough, who worked a lot with Prince in the early 90s. Apparently the clip was sent to the press ahead of the Diamonds & Pearls tour (the clips of Prince are from rehearsals for that tour). So Prince and/or his camp put that together.   The Quincy interview footage was filmed in the late 80s for another project. I read that Prince also talked about Quincy's comments at a concert once. Those were definitely salty comments. It'd be one thing if he just said Prince was not as good as some of the pianists he worked with or if he didn't think of him as a piano player, but he said Prince was someone who just "knew some piano chords," which is flat out ridiculous. I think whoever's call it was to trim LIML made the wrong call. I really started loving that song when Rod released the uncut version. It must have been a late decision as the album sleeve shows the full lyrics. If I recall correctly, all the trimming was done very last minute, after The Girl Is Mine was already out as a single. Yeah, that's a great verse. Then again, what would you cut instead? |
|
TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,484
|
Post by TonyR on Jul 29, 2020 12:18:08 GMT
I think whoever's call it was to trim LIML made the wrong call. I really started loving that song when Rod released the uncut version. It must have been a late decision as the album sleeve shows the full lyrics. If I recall correctly, all the trimming was done very last minute, after The Girl Is Mine was already out as a single. Yeah, that's a great verse. Then again, what would you cut instead? Was it out of necessity then? Was Thriller the maximum length it could be at the time? It's only 42 minutes or so isn't it so would have thought it could have stood the extra 90 seconds. |
|
|
|
Post by Russg on Jul 29, 2020 12:18:36 GMT
Slightly off topic, but I recently saw a video of Quincy belittling Prince's piano playing. It was turned into a meme by Prince fans where snippets of Quincy talking down on Prince's piano playing are interspersed with Prince doing great piano runs. To me it was another confirmation that Quincy has a tendency to be jealous of others and/or snobby towards pop artists. He was like "I don't think of Prince as a real piano player. Someone like Herbie Hancock is a real piano player." It wasn't even a recent interview so it can't be blamed on his age. It looked early 90s. So it's not just MJ that he belittled. I think that was late 80s. Quincy's always been salty and hungry for the lionshare of the credit. |
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 29, 2020 12:27:38 GMT
If I recall correctly, all the trimming was done very last minute, after The Girl Is Mine was already out as a single. Yeah, that's a great verse. Then again, what would you cut instead? Was it out of necessity then? Was Thriller the maximum length it could be at the time? It's only 42 minutes or so isn't it so would have thought it could have stood the extra 90 seconds. I also hate that the full version of SC isn't on Bad. I want that damn second verse from the shortfilm intact on the album! |
|
|
|
Post by SoCav on Jul 29, 2020 12:32:01 GMT
If I recall correctly, all the trimming was done very last minute, after The Girl Is Mine was already out as a single. Yeah, that's a great verse. Then again, what would you cut instead? Was it out of necessity then? Was Thriller the maximum length it could be at the time? It's only 42 minutes or so isn't it so would have thought it could have stood the extra 90 seconds. If you go much over 18/19 minutes a side on vinyl, the sound quality starts to suffer. That was one of the reasons MJ and his team were very unhappy with the test pressing of the record. It sounded way too thin because they squeezed way too much material onto it. |
|
TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,484
|
Post by TonyR on Jul 29, 2020 12:51:58 GMT
Was it out of necessity then? Was Thriller the maximum length it could be at the time? It's only 42 minutes or so isn't it so would have thought it could have stood the extra 90 seconds. I also hate that the full version of SC isn't on Bad. I want that damn second verse from the shortfilm intact on the album! Do we know if that was the plan? Or was it recorded especially for the short film to give him more time to get up the stairs? |
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 29, 2020 12:55:01 GMT
I also hate that the full version of SC isn't on Bad. I want that damn second verse from the shortfilm intact on the album! Do we know if that was the plan? Or was it recorded especially for the short film to give him more time to get up the stairs? Occam's razor would suggest the album version is an edit. A re-record of a song to give him more time to get up the stairs seems unlikely. Surely the video fits around the song, not the other way round....? |
|
No doubt.
