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Post by ghost on Jan 5, 2023 9:03:32 GMT
I think it's as simple as "this guy is obviously one of the greatest, but there's a possibility he might be a pedophile so we better not put him too high." If this list came out in 2009 when that stuff was kind of brushed to the side he probably would have been put top 5. That's just it though, he wasn't even top ten or top twenty back then IIRC. I think he was 20-something on the last list. They have a history of diminishing his influence, the fallout from Leaving Neverland just made it easier for them to do this.
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Post by WildStyle on Jan 5, 2023 9:12:33 GMT
I think it's as simple as "this guy is obviously one of the greatest, but there's a possibility he might be a pedophile so we better not put him too high." If this list came out in 2009 when that stuff was kind of brushed to the side he probably would have been put top 5. That's just it though, he wasn't even top ten or top twenty back then IIRC. I think he was 20-something on the last list. They have a history of diminishing his influence, the fallout from Leaving Neverland just made it easier for them to do this. Just checked and in 2008, which I think is the last time they did this, they had him at 25. So I can definitely see post 2009 - pre 2019 when it was cool to like Michael again that he could have been higher.
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Post by NatureCriminal7896 on Jan 5, 2023 10:04:38 GMT
While i'm am an MJ fan i do like other artists as well. this is why i don't care because this coming from someone else standpoint.
i been seeing fan communities of these artists just happy that they're on there.
so i think people taking this too seriously.
Michael wasn't and isn't the only artist that was on this earth.
i like both Aaliyah and Aretha Franklin music. i even like other artists on here as well. 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jan 5, 2023 11:13:42 GMT
I think it's as simple as "this guy is obviously one of the greatest, but there's a possibility he might be a pedophile so we better not put him too high." If this list came out in 2009 when that stuff was kind of brushed to the side he probably would have been put top 5. Thing is other artists on the list had allegations against them or self-confessed to having sex with minors, yet they aren't doing this to any of them. For example, I see Iggy Pop is in their Top 200. If they are so woke that alleged or supposed private life behavior factors in these rankings why is he even there? He admits in a song lyric to have slept with a 13 yo Sable Starr... But it's MJ who's music is "difficult to listen now"? No such note made about Pop who has an actual song lyric bragging about having had sex with a minor. Gimme a break. Of course they don't mention alleged or supposed "problematic" behavior in other artists' case either: Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Elvis, Lennon etc. And I don't think these double standards are just since LN either. The media always tends to use MJ's supposed "private life" (or rather the lies about it) as an excuse to downgrade him as an artist. Not in most other artists' case.
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Post by SoCav on Jan 5, 2023 11:15:44 GMT
That's just it though, he wasn't even top ten or top twenty back then IIRC. I think he was 20-something on the last list. They have a history of diminishing his influence, the fallout from Leaving Neverland just made it easier for them to do this. Just checked and in 2008, which I think is the last time they did this, they had him at 25. So I can definitely see post 2009 - pre 2019 when it was cool to like Michael again that he could have been higher. Maybe in late 2009, riding the wave of This Is It (which, for all its faults, did a ton of good for MJ's artistic reputation, to the extent that even publications like Rolling Stone had to take it seriously). But by the time the Michael album came out a year later, I think that passed already. I think they'd have placed him in the 20-30 range then as well. But indeed, it's just become easier for them to place him even lower now using the 'tarnished reputation' argument.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jan 5, 2023 11:31:09 GMT
Just checked and in 2008, which I think is the last time they did this, they had him at 25. So I can definitely see post 2009 - pre 2019 when it was cool to like Michael again that he could have been higher. Maybe in late 2009, riding the wave of This Is It (which, for all its faults, did a ton of good for MJ's artistic reputation, to the extent that even publications like Rolling Stone had to take it seriously). But by the time the Michael album came out a year later, I think that passed already. I think they'd have placed him in the 20-30 range then as well. But indeed, it's just become easier for them to place him even lower now using the 'tarnished reputation' argument. IMO Rolling Stone always had a disdain for MJ. Even before any allegation, their relationship with MJ was never really a good one. On the rare occasion they wrote a positive article about him it was due to MJ blowing up so big that they just couldn't ignore him any more. But I think the underlying disdain was there even then. Maybe it all started with that thing in 1979 when MJ's label begged them for a cover story on OTW and they refused saying they felt MJ and OTW "was not a cover story". I feel in that note to himself where he's talking about magazines that won't put black people on their cover telling black artists that "black people on the cover don't sell" was a reaction to these type of experiences that he had with RS in 1979. Then there's the whole white boomer snobism of RS that MJ's type of art never fit into (maybe in recent years, like everything else, their offices are getting more diverse, but I think back then it was pretty much run by white male boomers, representing more their aesthetic and taste than anything else).
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Post by WildStyle on Jan 5, 2023 12:47:22 GMT
I think it's as simple as "this guy is obviously one of the greatest, but there's a possibility he might be a pedophile so we better not put him too high." If this list came out in 2009 when that stuff was kind of brushed to the side he probably would have been put top 5. Thing is other artists on the list had allegations against them or self-confessed to having sex with minors, yet they aren't doing this to any of them. For example, I see Iggy Pop is in their Top 200. If they are so woke that alleged or supposed private life behavior factors in these rankings why is he even there? He admits in a song lyric to have slept with a 13 yo Sable Starr... But it's MJ who's music is "difficult to listen now"? No such note made about Pop who has an actual song lyric bragging about having had sex with a minor. Gimme a break. Of course they don't mention alleged or supposed "problematic" behavior in other artists' case either: Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Elvis, Lennon etc. And I don't think these double standards are just since LN either. The media always tends to use MJ's supposed "private life" (or rather the lies about it) as an excuse to downgrade him as an artist. Not in most other artists' case. I get what you're saying, but you have to be able to see how MJ's situation is different. MJ was literally on trial for child molestation, has multiple accusers, a major money backed hit piece documentary that a lot of people bought, previously settled a lawsuit for 20 million and is on tape saying it's fine for unrelated adults to share beds with children. That's a lot different to artists who in most cases have never even had people accuse them of wrongdoing. And unfortunately, as we all know, even to this day (though it's starting to change) sex with teenage girls (especially in the 50's, 60's, 70's) is looked at very differently to molestation of young boys.
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Post by SoCav on Jan 5, 2023 12:49:27 GMT
Then there's the whole white boomer snobism of RS that MJ's type of art never fit into (maybe in recent years, like everything else, their offices are getting more diverse, but I think back then it was pretty much run by white male boomers, representing more their aesthetic and taste than anything else). I think it goes back to music critics like those at RS originally simply not getting MJ, as they've always leaned more towards the 60s and 70s music and aesthetics they grew up with. The disdain, I think, then stems from the fact that MJ became so huge. Ironically, I think that he'd rank higher on lists like these if he'd been less successful.
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Post by WildStyle on Jan 5, 2023 12:57:07 GMT
Then there's the whole white boomer snobism of RS that MJ's type of art never fit into (maybe in recent years, like everything else, their offices are getting more diverse, but I think back then it was pretty much run by white male boomers, representing more their aesthetic and taste than anything else). I think it goes back to music critics like those at RS originally simply not getting MJ, as they've always leaned more towards the 60s and 70s music and aesthetics they grew up with. The disdain, I think, then stems from the fact that MJ became so huge. Ironically, I think that he'd rank higher on lists like these if he'd been less successful. They love Prince because he's edgy (or at least was in his prime) and a brilliant instrumentalist who on his own wrote and produced basically all of his music, while they see MJ as unserious, bubblegum, and more of a singer and dancer than true musician. It's snobbery and a misunderstanding of MJ the artist.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jan 5, 2023 16:36:20 GMT
I think it goes back to music critics like those at RS originally simply not getting MJ, as they've always leaned more towards the 60s and 70s music and aesthetics they grew up with. The disdain, I think, then stems from the fact that MJ became so huge. Ironically, I think that he'd rank higher on lists like these if he'd been less successful. They love Prince because he's edgy (or at least was in his prime) and a brilliant instrumentalist who on his own wrote and produced basically all of his music, while they see MJ as unserious, bubblegum, and more of a singer and dancer than true musician. It's snobbery and a misunderstanding of MJ the artist. Yet, they have no problem with "unserious bubblegum singer-dancers" when they are not called MJ: eg. Beyoncé, Harry Styles, Britney Spears etc. A lot of these have got more respect from RS than MJ ever has.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jan 5, 2023 16:41:08 GMT
Thing is other artists on the list had allegations against them or self-confessed to having sex with minors, yet they aren't doing this to any of them. For example, I see Iggy Pop is in their Top 200. If they are so woke that alleged or supposed private life behavior factors in these rankings why is he even there? He admits in a song lyric to have slept with a 13 yo Sable Starr... But it's MJ who's music is "difficult to listen now"? No such note made about Pop who has an actual song lyric bragging about having had sex with a minor. Gimme a break. Of course they don't mention alleged or supposed "problematic" behavior in other artists' case either: Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Elvis, Lennon etc. And I don't think these double standards are just since LN either. The media always tends to use MJ's supposed "private life" (or rather the lies about it) as an excuse to downgrade him as an artist. Not in most other artists' case. I get what you're saying, but you have to be able to see how MJ's situation is different. MJ was literally on trial for child molestation, has multiple accusers, a major money backed hit piece documentary that a lot of people bought, previously settled a lawsuit for 20 million and is on tape saying it's fine for unrelated adults to share beds with children. That's a lot different to artists who in most cases have never even had people accuse them of wrongdoing. Yet, it's a lot more likely that someone like Iggy Pop indeed had sex with a 13 yo (as he himself admitted to it in song lyrics)... Here's an idea: Maybe just don't play moral police at all in a music magazine, leave that to courts. And a reminder: yes, MJ was on trial for child molestation. He was also acquitted on all counts. Maybe it's time for the media to respect that and not write BS like "it's more difficult to enjoy his music since we KNOW certain things about his private life". They don't know. They assume because they took an allegation at face value. Maybe it's time they realize that. In any case, what they believe or don't believe about his private life should not play a part in how they evaluate him as an artist. There's absolutely no need to bring that up in a music related article. If they looked out of their ivory tower for a moment they'd see that people actually have no problem with enjoying his music: his streams and sales are even higher now than before LN.
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Post by MattyJam on Jan 5, 2023 16:41:53 GMT
They love Prince because he's edgy (or at least was in his prime) and a brilliant instrumentalist who on his own wrote and produced basically all of his music, while they see MJ as unserious, bubblegum, and more of a singer and dancer than true musician. It's snobbery and a misunderstanding of MJ the artist. Yet, they have no problem with "unserious bubblegum singer-dancers" when they are not called MJ: eg. Beyoncé, Harry Styles, Britney Spears etc. A lot of these have got more respect from RS than MJ ever has. And none of them single handedly wrote a good chunk of their biggest hits unlike MJ.
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Post by pg13 on Jan 5, 2023 18:42:46 GMT
On the other hand, Billboard ranked MJ at no 7 for Greatest Artists Of All Time list they published 7 hours ago. www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-of-all-time-artists/Barbara Streisand, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Elton John and Rolling Stones above him. Don't agree with that. But at least they didn't put him at a ridiculously low ranking.... 🤷♂️
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Jan 5, 2023 19:35:39 GMT
On the other hand, Billboard ranked MJ at no 7 for Greatest Artists Of All Time list they published 7 hours ago. www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-of-all-time-artists/Barbara Streisand, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Elton John and Rolling Stones above him. Don't agree with that. But at least they didn't put him at a ridiculously low ranking.... 🤷♂️ In Billboard lists the singles' charts usually play a big part. They somehow seem to overrate them vs albums.
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Post by WildStyle on Jan 5, 2023 23:21:34 GMT
I get what you're saying, but you have to be able to see how MJ's situation is different. MJ was literally on trial for child molestation, has multiple accusers, a major money backed hit piece documentary that a lot of people bought, previously settled a lawsuit for 20 million and is on tape saying it's fine for unrelated adults to share beds with children. That's a lot different to artists who in most cases have never even had people accuse them of wrongdoing. Yet, it's a lot more likely that someone like Iggy Pop indeed had sex with a 13 yo (as he himself admitted to it in song lyrics)... Here's an idea: Maybe just don't play moral police at all in a music magazine, leave that to courts. And a reminder: yes, MJ was on trial for child molestation. He was also acquitted on all counts. Maybe it's time for the media to respect that and not write BS like "it's more difficult to enjoy his music since we KNOW certain things about his private life". They don't know. They assume because they took an allegation at face value. Maybe it's time they realize that. In any case, what they believe or don't believe about his private life should not play a part in how they evaluate him as an artist. There's absolutely no need to bring that up in a music related article. If they looked out of their ivory tower for a moment they'd see that people actually have no problem with enjoying his music: his streams and sales are even higher now than before LN. Ideally this would be the way things work, but I swear MJ fans live in their own world when it comes to this stuff.
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