|
Post by pg13 on Aug 5, 2023 19:31:29 GMT
In terms of MJs ballads, he's done some amazing ones, I really don't know why you can't see that Matty? Butterflies Stranger In Moscow Someone Put Your Hand Out Break of Dawn Heaven Can Wait Much Too Soon Little Susie Smile Speechless Fall Again Human Nature The Lady In My Life She's Out of My Life acoustic demo Liberian Girl? Will You Be There is a pop-gospel ballad, so put that in the list!
|
|
|
Post by butterflies2 on Aug 5, 2023 19:57:06 GMT
Love both those artists but nah, mj beats them. Though I would also say his voice on ballads was stronger in the 70s
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Aug 6, 2023 4:28:57 GMT
Human Nature and Stranger in Moscow wipe the floor with anything on that list in OP IMO.
I liked Take a Bow. I think it's one of Madonna's best songs, but still not up there with something like Human Nature or Stranger in Moscow IMO. It's just another nice Babyface ballad in his usual style. The 90s were kind of saturated with that, which is why I'm glad MJ eventually never released a Babyface song as a part of his official catalog and he just passed Why to 3T. If he had recorded that one solo with a fancy little video it would have been very similar to Take A Bow IMO. So gimme Stranger in Moscow any time over a run of the mill 90s Babyface ballad.
In a way I agree with you that ballads weren't the strongest part of MJ's catalog, there are artists who are bigger on ballads than he was, but still he had some excellent and very special ones.
Also, if we count songs like Will You Be There, Man in the Mirror or Earth Song among ballads do (I kinda do) then MJ clearly wins this, I'm sorry.
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Aug 6, 2023 6:07:28 GMT
Also, if we count songs like Will You Be There, Man in the Mirror or Earth Song among ballads do (I kinda do) then MJ clearly wins this, I'm sorry. Well, yes, but these really aren't ballads are they? Perhaps WYBT, but ES and MITM? I don't see them as ballads. I personally would've loved Why to have been released as a solo MJ song, instead of YANA. I don't agree that "Take A Bow" was "run-of-the-mill Babyface." Sure, certain songwriters have a distinctive sound that they do very well but a great song is a great song. If MJ had been offered "Take A Bow" instead of Madonna, it would've been the best ballad in his catalogue - along with Human Nature imo (not including the great pre-OTW ballads).
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Aug 6, 2023 6:17:37 GMT
Why is Earth Song not a ballad? It's a slow song. Is it because of the choir and the build up at the end why it's not a ballad?
But if we accept WYBT as a ballad that's a very strong argument for MJ winning this fight. Do you really think Take a Bow is a better song than WYBT?
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Aug 6, 2023 6:41:20 GMT
Why is Earth Song not a ballad? It's a slow song. Is it because of the choir and the build up at the end why it's not a ballad? But if we accept WYBT as a ballad that's a very strong argument for MJ winning this fight. Do you really think Take a Bow is a better song than WYBT? Earth Song just feels too rousing at the end to be a traditional ballad. It starts out like a ballad, but the last half is way too heavy to be a ballad imo. I would probably say Take a Bow is better than WYBT, yes. I do love WYBT, but it's a touch too weepy at times. Granted, WYBT feels more majestic and is clearly more of a personal statement from MJ than TAB is for Madonna. But I'm just a sucker for those 90s Babyface ballads I guess. It's my achilles heel. I love Babyface's choice of chord inversions, which is why I can stomach You Are My Life, which is otherwise very weepy. Babyface has a great musical ear and his compositions are always classy sounding. I find the whole debate of what constitutes a ballad and what doesn't to be fascinating. Are you of the school of thought that Heaven Can Wait/Butterflies/Break of Dawn count as ballads? I've always disagreed with that.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Aug 6, 2023 7:08:05 GMT
I think if OP would be rephrased as Madonna/Prince being stronger in love song type of ballads then I'd agree more. Because most of MJ's best ballads are not love songs (SIM, HN, WYBT, to me ES as well, etc.) but they are exceptional ballads. They are just not love songs. MJ actually had very few love songs, especially self written ones.
Liberian Girl I Just Can't Stop Loving You Much too Soon
Is that it?
(You can characterize some others like The Way You Make Me Feel, In the Closet as love songs, but they are not ballads.)
Plus the non self written ones like
She's Out of My Life The Lady in My Life YANA and a couple on Invincible.
|
|
|
Post by pg13 on Aug 6, 2023 9:17:52 GMT
Also, if we count songs like Will You Be There, Man in the Mirror or Earth Song among ballads do (I kinda do) then MJ clearly wins this, I'm sorry. Well, yes, but these really aren't ballads are they? Perhaps WYBT, but ES and MITM? I don't see them as ballads. I personally would've loved Why to have been released as a solo MJ song, instead of YANA. I don't agree that "Take A Bow" was "run-of-the-mill Babyface." Sure, certain songwriters have a distinctive sound that they do very well but a great song is a great song. If MJ had been offered "Take A Bow" instead of Madonna, it would've been the best ballad in his catalogue - along with Human Nature imo (not including the great pre-OTW ballads). MITM is most definitely a pop-gospel ballad! There's no two ways about that one. Earth Song incorporates multiple genres in one, but is essentially a ballad that becomes something else towards the end. Agree with Respect in regards to love songs as that's a specific form of ballad. MJ didn’t put many self-penned love song ballads on his albums. But ballads aren't just love songs. Billie Jean has always been described as a pop ballad, for example. And it IS a ballad!
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Aug 6, 2023 10:01:21 GMT
But ballads aren't just love songs. Billie Jean has always been described as a pop ballad, for example. And it IS a ballad! Okay, now you're just fucking with me...
|
|
|
Post by pg13 on Aug 6, 2023 11:11:37 GMT
But ballads aren't just love songs. Billie Jean has always been described as a pop ballad, for example. And it IS a ballad! Okay, now you're just fucking with me... Sorry....a pop/R&B ballad. Is that better, Mr Jam-o?
|
|
TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,413
|
Post by TonyR on Aug 6, 2023 14:57:03 GMT
For the purposes of both clarity and sanity, there's no way on God's green earth that WYBT and Earth Song are ballads. No Googled half ass definition will tell me otherwise. Look hard enough the Internet will tell you the Earth is flat, doesn't make it true. Ergo, the original is assumption from MattyJam is true. Lock the thread and throw away the key.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Aug 6, 2023 15:38:38 GMT
For the purposes of both clarity and sanity, there's no way on God's green earth that WYBT and Earth Song are ballads. No Googled half ass definition will tell me otherwise. Look hard enough the Internet will tell you the Earth is flat, doesn't make it true. Ergo, the original is assumption from MattyJam is true. Lock the thread and throw away the key. Wikipedia thinks otherwise: "Earth Song" is a ballad that incorporates elements of blues, gospel and opera." en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Song
|
|
|
Post by Russg on Aug 6, 2023 15:53:19 GMT
Interesting thread Matty.
As most of you know, I am a massive Madonna fan, especially the Madonna of the 80s and 90s. I'm also very well acquainted with Prince's music and whilst I'm not as a big a fan of him as some, I've still heard all his albums at least once and know far more of his work than those who just know his greatest hits for example.
Having said all that, I actually wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that MJ was poor at ballads in comparison to Madonna/Prince. Yes, Madonna has done some great ballads, especially You'll See, Take A Bow and Live To Tell. But for every great ballad, there's one in her catalogue that falls flat, see I Want You, One More Chance, Love Don't Live Here Anymore, Spanish Eyes etc. Utter dirge.
Whilst I wouldn't go as far as @innuendo141 as to say Prince was atrocious at writing ballads (I love Call My Name, Pink Cashmere and Adore), I wouldn't say he wrote anything as memorable as Liberian Girl or as soul-stirring as Stranger In Moscow.
I also think the R Kelly/MJ ballads were all really good and get a bad wrap. YANA was huge for a reason (it's one of the best male vocal ballads of the 90s) and Cry could just have easily been as big if MJ made a decent video and a few high-profile performances of it.
Another MJ ballad which I love, which I don't think gets enough credit, is Much Too Soon.
|
|
|
Post by pg13 on Aug 6, 2023 16:03:21 GMT
For the purposes of both clarity and sanity, there's no way on God's green earth that WYBT and Earth Song are ballads. No Googled half ass definition will tell me otherwise. Look hard enough the Internet will tell you the Earth is flat, doesn't make it true. Ergo, the original is assumption from MattyJam is true. Lock the thread and throw away the key. A ballad isn't just a love song although many think it is. How on God's green earth is WYBT not a pop-gospel ballad?!
|
|
|
Post by pg13 on Aug 6, 2023 16:10:02 GMT
For the purposes of both clarity and sanity, there's no way on God's green earth that WYBT and Earth Song are ballads. No Googled half ass definition will tell me otherwise. Look hard enough the Internet will tell you the Earth is flat, doesn't make it true. Ergo, the original is assumption from MattyJam is true. Lock the thread and throw away the key. Wikipedia thinks otherwise: "Earth Song" is a ballad that incorporates elements of blues, gospel and opera." en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_SongAlso from Wikipedia: "A ballad is a form of verse, often a narrative set to music. Ballads derive from the medieval French chanson balladée or ballade, which were originally "dance songs".Billie Jean, WYBT, ES and others are examples of ballads. They're not your traditional love song type ballads, but ballads nonetheless.
|
|