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Post by Liberian Girl on Oct 28, 2017 16:42:48 GMT
I thought it would be interesting to feel out fans opinions on this. I think it's been discussed before on other forums but I haven't seen the topic discussed here.
Do you think Michael was ever complicit/involved in some of the legends and myths that he ended up complaining about in later life? Do you think he ever planted stories himself, or had staff report things to the media that was "weird" or "sensationalist" in order to keep his famous persona of high interest? Maybe to a degree (before things like the child abuse allegations came along) he enjoyed seeing people confused/intrigued by what was and wasn't true and how different he was. If you think this is true, how do you feel about this - do you think it made him a contradiction? For example, the Barbara Walters interview. She said to him that you can't court the press one moment and expect them to go away the next, and Michael replied, "Yes, you can."
He DID once say that he wanted his life to be "the greatest show on earth" so I have wondered this myself.
What are your opinions?
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 28, 2017 18:17:27 GMT
I've always thought he purposely structured that image, right from the 80s though to 2007-2009. Remember those last outings befor TiI was announced when he went out with post it notes over his face? I mean....come on.
I think it was also his sense of humour, he like toying with the press etc. Which is fine, but after 1993 I thought he realised that he needed to cultivate himself a more normal persona to rebuild his image, but obviously he didn't.
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ChrisC
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Post by ChrisC on Oct 28, 2017 18:32:53 GMT
Absolutely, I think he was.
Delaying things like the vitiligo information as well. It was all to generate column inches. And all things considered, he was an absolute master at it.
When the industry changed after 2000 I felt MJ's approach didn't and this was something of a misstep. But prior to that I always got a kick out of it to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 1:10:10 GMT
Oh lawd! You realise you have just opened Pandora's box, well me never one to shy away from scandal and necessary trash talking and throwing shade will join in! In one book, I can't remember name, possibly Randall Sullivan or Taraborelli, it mentions how in 1986 Michael and Frank Di Leo decided to have stories inserted in tabloids about Michael's bizarre antics and the Elephant man's bones and Hyperbaric chamber where the start. But it backfired, people focussed more on his lightening skin and must of have observed him hanging around with the kids. But until about 1990, it was controllable, yeah people thought he was weird and by 1989 the shit was sticking (If the Leave me alone video is anything to go by). Still when the Jordie Chandler nonsense broke in Aug 1993, it was downhill and all came together, kids, surgery, shyness the animals and the media went in full pickle and assault on Michael Jackson, this passive and very bizarre traget taht was easy to sell papers over. Plus they could attack him as they felt he was too successful - after all in their mind, why is it this complete weirdo could be called the King of Pop and get away with it, when a normal person carving up their face, hanging out with young boys and surrounding himself with apes and llamas would be laughed out of existence (Not my view just that of bigots and paparazzo, I actually thought good for him, except the kids) Michael is still cuplable because of the following things (Please read my whole post before you close in on the kill - especially you Respect77 and TonyR) 1. The plastic surgery got way the fuck out of hand, okay a couple of nose jobs fine and we understand the creams for vitiligo, but tell us you have it and we may have understood, because folks got angry about his skin changing colour. Also wearing the straight haired wigs, thinning his lips and cheekbones and trying to look white (Well after 2005 he started fattening his lips at least). I mean Prince at least chose to wear an afro wig, not a white girl Liz Taylor type one. 2. These boys hanging around him - from Emmanuel Lewis to the Arvisios. Yeah sure they were his friends, but people are not pure minded and they talk. When he is running around naked and playing games with them and sleeping in his bedroom - that is just wrong u think all sorts of nasty things. He may have done nothing, but the shit did look suspicious. 3. Neverland and the reclusiveness - yes he is a big ass star and shy, and but snubbing your fans and hiding again looks wrong and arrogant. Jealousy and gossip just spring out of it. A few more public appearances and being normal (Jermaine's book said Michael doid not sound like that weepy high pitched voice in real life, but sounded natural). 4, Dumb ass publicity stunts - dangling your baby off a balcony, floating giant statues down a river, fighting Sony and the rest - no no no, it is attention for the wrong reasons. Paying off the Chandlers, he did not need to do shit for these liars. 5. The erratic post 2000 lifestyle, buying things and not buying them, moving around from place to place, running up bills and being sued, hanging out with people like the Arab Prince, Moonies, kids, dodgy advisers like Tome Tome, leeches like Grace Rawabamba, just all looked wrong. 6. Drugs and painkillers - why do people always have to fuck their lives up with this shit "I need to cope" fuck sake man up and deal with it already. But the following was not his fault and MUCH worse than what he did1. The ignomy of the Trials and investigations - why oh why was he subjected to these things, innocent and naive, he was ripe for the taking. The last trial eventually just killed him, it was like MJ lost his zest for life and spent his last 4 years wandering and dead inside. 2. The Media, particularly the gutter tabloid press - Liars and wreckers, horrible mean minded evil satanic bloodsucking parasites and leaches. Lied about MJ constantly, put him on trial, blew everything he did out of proportion - made up lies even after his death. Had no respect for him as a person or an artist. Things like 2006 london appaearance and African tour of 1992 called a fliop when in reality a massive success. 3. His family - Just bled him dry and forever pestered him for money and favours. Some like Randy were maggots threatening to kill him and everything else. All except Katherine of course and you all know my feelings on Joseph. 4. Dodgy managers and advisers - Tome Tome, Arnold Klein, Debbie Rowe, John Brance, DiLeo, Conrad Murray - we are looking at you. Michael Schaffer. 5. The Arvisio. Chandler families, Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck - all feeding off him and making up lies and bullshit that discredited him. 6. Whoever the fuck did all that work on his nose - seriously dude, look what you started. 7. Sony - ripping him off, not promoting Invincible, trying to steal his music catalogue, charging interest on loans, milking his estate after his death. 8. The Estate, run by people Michael could not stand, realeasing albums of fake songs, shitty remixes and dreadful TV specials. So that is my contribution to the box, feel free to criticise, agree with, and atack, but don't attack me personally - I am a fan
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Oct 29, 2017 7:10:53 GMT
Oh lawd! You realise you have just opened Pandora's box, well me never one to shy away from scandal and necessary trash talking and throwing shade will join in! Yes, one can tell you love trash-talk and even if that means you have to make up your own "facts" for that, instead of relying on real facts. I will never give a supposed fan a pass over such BS, especially when it comes to the allegations which is a sensitive spot. Where did you take that bullcrap from? The Sun, the National Enquirer or which trash of a magazine is your Bible about the MJ cases? At this point I do have to wonder because you just talk so much BS about these cases. MJ NEVER ran around naked with boys! What a lot of nonsense is that? And for a supposed fan to make up and spread around nonsense like this. WTF is wrong with you, man? When did he snub his fans? You must mistake him for Prince. Having Neverland never meant snubbing his fans or behaving arrogantly with them. On the contrary, there were always fans running around NL because he actually always invited everyone and their mother to NL. He was one of the most accessible celebrities to his fans and one who was always very kind to his fans. You will never find a bad story about him in that regard. You are not better yourself, going by your above comment about running around naked with boys.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 7:46:32 GMT
In Michael Jackson's home movies, he is running around naked in the swimming pool when they are pushing each other in water. Michael also claimed to sleep naked in the bed with boys and sometimes hug them, he thought this behaviour was normal. I knew uber Angri sista troll like you would respond first. I feel like I have been led to an asps nest - I am sure Conformity was based on you. Unfortunately this is not MJJC where you can't say these things, here you can and at least unlike you, I am still welcome there at MJJC
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Oct 29, 2017 7:51:31 GMT
I thought it would be interesting to feel out fans opinions on this. I think it's been discussed before on other forums but I haven't seen the topic discussed here.
Do you think Michael was ever complicit/involved in some of the legends and myths that he ended up complaining about in later life? Do you think he ever planted stories himself, or had staff report things to the media that was "weird" or "sensationalist" in order to keep his famous persona of high interest? Maybe to a degree (before things like the child abuse allegations came along) he enjoyed seeing people confused/intrigued by what was and wasn't true and how different he was. If you think this is true, how do you feel about this - do you think it made him a contradiction? For example, the Barbara Walters interview. She said to him that you can't court the press one moment and expect them to go away the next, and Michael replied, "Yes, you can."
He DID once say that he wanted his life to be "the greatest show on earth" so I have wondered this myself.
What are your opinions?
Probably he was involved in planting some "weirdo" stories, after all PT Barnum was an influence of his. But I don't think that's actually rare with celebrities. Only most have a different kind of image that they plant, but planting a certain image in the media, even if it is not true, or at least exaggerated is common in the celebrity world, IMO. The "every publicity is good publicity" saying did not start with Michael Jackson. For example, back in the 1970s David Bowie claimed he was bisexual because at the time it was the edgy thing to be, but later he said that was more for image than anything else. Or Prince, for that matter. Playing with sexual and gender ambiguity, cross-dressing etc., just like Bowie before him, while he was probably just plain ol' vanilla heterosexual - just like Bowie. LOL. So I don't think creating a public persona for image, shock value, for being edgy, being seen as "different" etc. is limited to MJ. It's actually probably practiced by most celebrities more or less - esp. those in the popular mainstream. It's just that MJ's image was so very different. Groups of people can relate to bisexuality, homosexuality, cross-dressing etc. but MJ's image (and person) is so unique that you cannot put it into any familiar box. It's just being MJ and that's it. (I think that's also why it was so easy to attack him with the child abuse allegations - it gave people a box to put him into. People love to put things into familiar boxes while someone who is outside of any of those familiar boxes makes them uncomfortable.) Usually when other celebs create a public persona of being edgy and different, it is centered around sexuality and/or gender: like the above examples of Bowie and Prince show, but also Madonna and many others. With MJ, his difference was different (LOL). Although the media did try to sexualize his difference as well and put sexual labels on him, but they got him wrong on that. Also, the fact he might have fed into some of these rumours in the 1980s, doesn't give a pass to the media about how they have treated him with the allegations and after that. It's one thing to write about an Elephant Man's bones story and it's quite another to make up BS about him committing crimes and being a pervert. ETA: I also think in MJ's case it wasn't really just creating a public persona while being totally different in real life. I think his image in the 80s was more an exaggeration who he was, but not a totally constructed persona. I mean, when you get down to who he really was it is not like you find "Mr. Normal" there. And I am not using the word "normal" as something positive or "not normal" as something negative here. I am using it in the "Normal Valley" sense. He was definitely not one from "Normal Valley". He knew that too and embraced it.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Oct 29, 2017 7:56:16 GMT
In Michael Jackson's home movies, he is running around naked in the swimming pool when they are pushing each other in water. Michael also claimed to sleep naked in the bed with boys and sometimes hug them, he thought this behaviour was normal. No, he did not run around naked with kids in the home movies. He was either fully clothed or wearing pants. That's not naked and not inappropriate. (And even if he had just worn swimming trunks it would not have been naked and inappropriate. Swimming trunks are just how people go to the pool, you know.) And, no he did NOT say that he slept naked in the bed with boys. "Naked" is the addition of your own twisted mind. MJ never said that! You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to making up your own facts. Which is what you are doing here with this naked crap. And if MJJC allows you to make up harmful lies about MJ and no one challenges you there about them then that's just telling about what is left of a once great community. I will never give up on my principles just to be a member of an Internet forum. And I knew you would again play the victim if you are being called out on your BS. As for who is a troll: well, you even introduce your own post saying how much you like to trash-talk, so...
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 29, 2017 8:22:48 GMT
In Michael Jackson's home movies, he is running around naked in the swimming pool when they are pushing each other in water. Michael also claimed to sleep naked in the bed with boys and sometimes hug them, he thought this behaviour was normal. I knew uber Angri sista troll like you would respond first. I feel like I have been led to an asps nest - I am sure Conformity was based on you. Unfortunately this is not MJJC where you can't say these things, here you can and at least unlike you, I am still welcome there at MJJC Triumph, this is not MJJC, and I do want to promote freedom of speech on this board and I have neither the time or the inclination to get in the middle of your beef with respect77. But you are wrong claiming that MJ ever admitted or condoned being naked around boys. That shit never happened. As respect77 pointed out, nobody goes swimming fully clothed, and just because someone is partially clothed it does not make them naked. There is a massive difference between the two and blurring the lines about the definition of nudity causes all sorts of insinuations which have been used against MJ by various trash websites and tabloids to try and promote the idea of MJ being a pedophile. Please don't do this here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 8:42:45 GMT
I never said anything about him being a paedophile Matty. I don't believe he was a paedophile. If anyone bothers to read my posts here and anywhere else, I am 100% covinced he was innocent and would never hurt a child. I am however critical of his behaviour with other people's kids, no one needs a delayed childhood lasting from age 18 to age 45.
Respect trolls me here, on MJJC and basically bites my head off anytime I say anything, perhaps you may want to put her in her place too instead of singling out me. You invited me here and the thread asked for opinions, I answered it and should be able to get them in without people like Respect77 bite my head off and call me names personally (Non fan, hater) and yet she gets away scott free and I get warned.
Please stop Respect 77 from trolling my behind all the time. I thought you may be able to stop some of the cyber bullying and harassment by so called righteous members like Respect77 indulge in - but no this is another bash the opposition to our majority views forum board like every other - hive mind is fully alive. If the so called moderators can't deal out the trolls, then I will.
I apologise for saying he was naked - it was a mistake - now lets all move on and get over it - plleeeaaassseeee!!!
I also warned Respect77 to read my whole post, but she did not and just singled in on anything she may disagree with - she took a very positive and valid point about me condemning the media, and twisted it so I was the same as that media.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Oct 29, 2017 8:54:12 GMT
^ It wasn't a positive post IMO. And you in fact, introduced it by saying how much you love to trash-talk and throw shade. So how is that supposed to be positive?
But you are entitled to your opinions and that's why I did not focus on subjective opinions. However, you aren't entitled to making up things (especially as harmful ones) and then whine about being "trolled" when called out on them.
I am not sure if you post offensive things like this on purpose (not just here, but also on other forums, like Prince.org) or you just don't realize how wrong and how offensive they are. I would give you the benefit of doubt of just not expressing yourself very well, but then it happens over and over again, despite of the many warnings and negative feedbacks you got about these type of comments on several boards through several topics, and you still won't change your ways of being seemingly deliberately offensive and provokative. Also, the introductions like the one ahead of your post here rather point to it being somewhat deliberate.
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 29, 2017 9:12:11 GMT
I never said anything about him being a paedophile Matty. I don't believe he was a paedophile. If anyone bothers to read my posts here and anywhere else, I am 100% covinced he was innocent and would never hurt a child. I am however critical of his behaviour with other people's kids, no one needs a delayed childhood lasting from age 18 to age 45. Respect trolls me here, on MJJC and basically bites my head off anytime I say anything, perhaps you may want to put her in her place too instead of singling out me. You invited me here and the thread asked for opinions, I answered it and should be able to get them in without people like Respect77 bite my head off and call me names personally (Non fan, hater) and yet she gets away scott free and I get warned. Please stop Respect 77 from trolling my behind all the time. I thought you may be able to stop some of the cyber bullying and harassment by so called righteous members like Respect77 indulge in - but no this is another bash the opposition to our majority views forum board like every other - hive mind is fully alive. If the so called moderators can't deal out the trolls, then I will. I also warned Respect77 to read my whole post, but she did not and just singled in on anything she may disagree with - she took a very positive and valid point about me condemning the media, and twisted it so I was the same as that media. I was not singling you out, I just think it's potentially harmful to MJ's legacy for actual fans to start saying things that aren't true about his relationship with boys. Imagine if you were a new MJ fan who joined this board and knew very little about the allegations and you read fans who actually believed he was innocent, casually talking about MJ being naked around boys... I put myself in there place and think we, as long-term fans, owe it to MJ to at least present his case fairly and accurately on his fanboards. There's enough false, twisted information out there about the allegations, without fans adding to it, either knowingly or otherwise. As to whether or not respect77 trolls you on other forums, I'm not in a position to judge about that. If I saw trolling or bullying on this board, I would address it, but I haven't seen it this far and I can't be expected to be held accountable for any baggage/drama carried over from other fanforums to this one. My advice would be to ignore or not engage with people who wind you up. Life too short for that shit. I do value both yours and respect77's contributions to this board, and I would call respect77 out if she was falsely claiming something about MJ's conduct with children, as this is a very contentious issue and one that I don't think should be taken lightly. I apologise for saying he was naked - it was a mistake - now lets all move on and get over it - plleeeaaassseeee!!! 100% agree.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Oct 29, 2017 9:20:53 GMT
Regarding surgery, I don't get why MJ was the ONLY one who got so much shit for it. Didn't LaToya and Janet have nose jobs too? And they often wore make up which made them appear lighter. Did people claim that they too didn't want to be black?
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Post by Liberian Girl on Oct 29, 2017 9:27:07 GMT
I have always thought Michael had a harder time about his appearance because of the vitiligo, which made his transformation that much more dramatic - but that wasn't his fault, I really felt bad for him that this condition really did change his appearance in ways he couldn't help yet people looked at him and criticised him. I think it may have been helpful (to public perception) if he had been open from the start that he had this condition, they might have been more aware and understood it rather than immediately thinking he wanted to "look white"... but at the same time, it was his choice, he didn't owe that to anyone. I guess he told fans when he felt ready and that was his right to do so. But yes, I agree with Dancingmjsdream, he was given a hard time and yet others had as much surgery as him. Nowadays you'll be hard pressed to find a major celebrity who hasn't had botox/surgery/facelifts etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 11:06:40 GMT
Triumph, i just read your posts and Respect is not trolling you. You are trolling yourself with the bullshit you've posted in this thread alone.
6. Drugs and painkillers - why do people always have to fuck their lives up with this shit "I need to cope" fuck sake man up and deal with it already.
What youve written here speaks volumes about you.
MOD NOTE - No namecalling please.
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