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Post by respect77 on Oct 31, 2017 8:39:46 GMT
BTW, I'm not saying his stubbornness in the Bashir interview was wise. It was stupid, yes. But MJ probably wouldn't be MJ without that stubbornness and refusal to conform.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 31, 2017 8:47:09 GMT
BTW, I'm not saying his stubbornness in the Bashir interview was wise. It was stupid, yes. But MJ probably wouldn't be MJ without that stubbornness and refusal to conform. Which is fine. But like I said earlier this wasn't the time for 'MJ just to be MJ' bearing in mind what had happened. He crossed the line from stubbornness to stupidity here and look where it nearly got him, it nearly killed him.
I can't just say "Who else but Michael?!?!?" and joke about it. It's incredibly sad. Incredibly.
And I know the blame in the end falls on Sneddon, Arvisos etc. But the original question was "Do You Think MJ Was Ever Complicit in His Own Notoriety" and the answer I'm afraid is yes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 10:30:00 GMT
I have to agree with Tony. For me, Living with MJ was the beginning of the end.
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Post by Snow White on Oct 31, 2017 10:44:11 GMT
Your comment falls into the victim blaming territory either way, Tony. Call me naive all you want but you're blaming him for being a rebel, at the end of the day, people's hatred and prejudice were unfounded.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 31, 2017 10:54:21 GMT
Your comment falls into the victim blaming territory either way, Tony. Call me naive all you want but you're blaming him for being a rebel, at the end of the day, people's hatred and prejudice were unfounded. Yes, I am partially blaming him. Not for 1993 and I'm not placing all the blame at his door. But he didn't help matters & that's a fact.
Looking back, are you glad he behaved that way & said those things. I'm not. And that's not just with hindsight.
As black & white as we try & make it, and the same as I referenced in the Kevin Spacey thread, the victim is not always 100% blame free. As others have said, take the name MJ out of this & is it right he was behaving this way in the first place? Maybe yes, maybe no. But then continuing to do it & rub people's face in if after being accused & damaging career almost irrepairably is just wrong.
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Post by HIStoric on Oct 31, 2017 10:54:25 GMT
Your comment falls into the victim blaming territory either way, Tony. Call me naive all you want but you're blaming him for being a rebel, at the end of the day, people's hatred and prejudice were unfounded. Oh come on. I think it's fair to blame him for some of the negative public perception towards him, he said some incredibly stupid and suspicious things on national television. I'm not saying he should've been hung out to dry like he was during the trial, but you can't say that kind of stuff whilst holding a child's hand and expect no-one to raise an eyebrow.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Oct 31, 2017 10:58:58 GMT
Your comment falls into the victim blaming territory either way, Tony. Call me naive all you want but you're blaming him for being a rebel, at the end of the day, people's hatred and prejudice were unfounded. But MJ had suffered a lot in 93, I don't get why he would continue putting himself in such situations.... I get that he wanted to make a point, and he didn't have to hide anything, but we can't ignore that he surrounded himself with those greedy people. I don't mind if he continued to visit children in hospitals and give money to charity but those close relationships and invitations to Neverland had to stop. I know that many times, MJ wasn't even in Neverland when families visited. But seriously did the sleep overs ever stop? He should have thought about his children, what if someone accuses him and he ends up in jail (for whatever reason), how were they going to live without their dad? MJ was lucky that most families he knew where actually decent and even defended him. He doesn't see anything wrong with his behaviour, but 93 should have taught him a lesson. Now I'm not defending these low lives who accused him, but MJ could have done A LOT to prevent it. You don't hold hands with a thirteen year old boy when you have been accused of molesting one, how naive can someone be?
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 31, 2017 13:43:09 GMT
Also, the stubbornness wasn't just shown on LWMJ, he also flaunted it in other (albeit less aggressive ways). These include:
1. Dedicating HIStory to 'the children of the world' 2. Recording a song called 'The Lost Children' 3. Earth Song performances - children coming on stage & hugging him.
The Top 2 above I have no problems with & applaud him. The third one was pushing it. But like I say, LWMJ Gavin scenes were a massive leap too far.
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Post by jaywonder on Nov 2, 2017 10:20:46 GMT
Sliding on past the allegations stuff since you all have discussed it....
Not only was he complicit in it, he, many times, encouraged it. While he did some cringeworthy things (the Brits Awards and World Music Awards performances, Bashir documentary) I have to be honest, Some instances I look back on and say "Ahh I understand" or "hell yeah, that was awesome" LOL For example, the 1992 20 minute pre show countdown to the Bucharest concert that aired here in the states on HBO or even the This Is It announcement.
Michael, along with a few people I grew up following, were geniuses at crafting their images to a point. Bob Dylan was someone who crafted his image of the poet/folk singer and it paid off incredibly. Bowie and his many characters pushed the envelope and opened doors for others to go through.
I'm not sure if anyone has looked into the life of Sammy Davis Jr., but I would strongly suggest you guys read his autobiography. More than James Brown or Michael's others heroes, Sammy Davis Jr's, life paralleled Michael's life. Child stars who gave up their childhoods to go own the road (Michael being 5 and I think Sammy was 3). Their ideas on race and other matters opened doors but also caused friction. A lot of their decisions, career wise, were formed because of their attitude from others that they COULDN'T do it. Sammy did a lot of things because he was told he couldn't or "No, black people aren't allowed to go that far"
Having a statue built and floating down the River Thames sounds like some extravagant s**t Sammy would've considered LOL. Truly defiant and saying "You thought you could cut me down to size? HERE'S THIS?"
Michael crafted his image and like I said, it worked to a point. All the montages like the "Kaliedascope" clip, "Brace Yourself", "Where It Began, Where It Went, Where It's Going", "The History Retrospective", and the others? Those were commissioned by MICHAEL and I think he even helped edit them. He wanted to be larger than life
In the end, if you take away the allegations and a lot of the controversy, it worked. He's been gone for 8 years and here we are, still discussing him. Books are still being made, People are still trying to figure him out.
Like he said in 1995, we fell into his trap LOL
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Nov 2, 2017 10:33:54 GMT
Sliding on past the allegations stuff since you all have discussed it.... Not only was he complicit in it, he, many times, encouraged it. While he did some cringeworthy things (the Brits Awards and World Music Awards performances, Bashir documentary) I have to be honest, Some instances I look back on and say "Ahh I understand" or "hell yeah, that was awesome" LOL For example, the 1992 20 minute pre show countdown to the Bucharest concert that aired here in the states on HBO or even the This Is It announcement. Michael, along with a few people I grew up following, were geniuses at crafting their images to a point. Bob Dylan was someone who crafted his image of the poet/folk singer and it paid off incredibly. Bowie and his many characters pushed the envelope and opened doors for others to go through. I'm not sure if anyone has looked into the life of Sammy Davis Jr., but I would strongly suggest you guys read his autobiography. More than James Brown or Michael's others heroes, Sammy Davis Jr's, life paralleled Michael's life. Child stars who gave up their childhoods to go own the road (Michael being 5 and I think Sammy was 3). Their ideas on race and other matters opened doors but also caused friction. A lot of their decisions, career wise, were formed because of their attitude from others that they COULDN'T do it. Sammy did a lot of things because he was told he couldn't or "No, black people aren't allowed to go that far" Having a statue built and floating down the River Thames sounds like some extravagant s**t Sammy would've considered LOL. Truly defiant and saying "You thought you could cut me down to size? HERE'S THIS?" Michael crafted his image and like I said, it worked to a point. All the montages like the "Kaliedascope" clip, "Brace Yourself", "Where It Began, Where It Went, Where It's Going", "The History Retrospective", and the others? Those were commissioned by MICHAEL and I think he even helped edit them. He wanted to be larger than life In the end, if you take away the allegations and a lot of the controversy, it worked. He's been gone for 8 years and here we are, still discussing him. Books are still being made, People are still trying to figure him out. Like he said in 1995, we fell into his trap LOL Great post.
I totally look at his behaviour two different ways.
1. Yeah, go for it, you show the muthafuckers!! 2. NOOOO!!!! Please don't say that. What the hell are you doing? They'll slaughter you for this!!!
I do the same with Madonna, most of the stuff she says I cringe at, but again I know she's doing it because she enjoys the game & winding people up who say 'that's not how women behave' or more importantly 'that's not how women of a certain age behave'.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2017 10:49:03 GMT
Good that you mention Sammy, because some of the stuff that people consider over the top, or there is this "who does he think he is" response from some segments of society (and even some fans feel uncomfortable about like the HIStory statue etc.) - these remind me of that one line in Black or White "I had to tell them I ain't second to none". I can't be sure what MJ meant by it, but to me it means that often black artists have to fight harder for acknowledgement and respect - and also have to conform to the expectations and aesthetics of a mostly white media at that.
Eg. his use of the King of Pop title is a good example of that. I don't know if he really asked the media to refer to him by that title. He probably did around the late 80s, early 90s although it does originate from the media (a 1984 article), not from MJ himself as some tried to suggest with the dismissive "self-titled" thing. But I felt the media tried so hard to dismiss him of the title, like "exposing" him of supposedly asking MTV to use it or the constant attachment of "self-titled" to it. (Not any more since his death.)
The reality is, no matter where it comes from and how much MJs PR used it, it's perfectly and undisputedly deserved.Who else would be the KOP if not MJ? He has all the receipts to back it up. The media easily attaches such titles to white artists (Elvis, Timberlake, Madonna etc.) but somehow spend decades of disputing MJs use of KOP - when in reality he's probably the most deserving of them all of such a title. To me that's what "I had to tell them I ain't second to none" means. White artists often get respect and acknowledgement easily while black artists have to rub it in their face even if it's as obvious as MJ being the KOP.
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Post by jaywonder on Nov 2, 2017 10:53:16 GMT
I think why Michael, Prince, and Madonna's careers are so legendary was because they changed how a pop star was defined. Three defiant and focused 24 year olds in 1982 changed the world LOL
For Michael and Prince, radio was segregated in the US again after the disco backlash and black artists were pushed to the side by many radio stations in fear of listeners thinking the music was dance music. Add the issue of a serious record sales slump, things were frustrating for black artists. If I remember correctly, only one R&B album in 1982 went platinum (The Gap Band's IV album). Michael and Prince release Thriller and 1999 a month apart, and BOOM! By the end of 1983 because of them as well as artists like Shalamar and Lionel Richie, MTV and radio were more diverse again (I believe MTV never truly gave those two men their props for putting MTV on the map, Prince especially) They flew in the face of what a pop star, and especially what a black pop star could do
Madonna, although I never believed she was on the same level talent wise as Prince and Michael, changed how women in the industry were seen on the executive level. Cher, Tina, Aretha, and others were power players (Diana Ross deserves more credit), Madonna had her label eating out of the palm of her hand. She was a trendsetter, An observer. If women weren't taken seriously in the industry, Madonna changed all of that.
Imagine a world where those three never existed. Matter of fact, let's not LOL
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Post by jaywonder on Nov 2, 2017 11:02:50 GMT
Good that you mention Sammy, because some of the stuff that people consider over the top, or there is this "who does he think he is" response from some segments of society (and even some fans feel uncomfortable about like the HIStory statue etc.) - these remind me of that one line in Black or White "I had to tell them I ain't second to none". I can't be sure what MJ meant by it, but to me it means that often black artists have to fight harder for acknowledgement and respect - and also have to conform to the expectations and aesthetics of a mostly white media at that. Eg. his use of the King of Pop title is a good example of that. I don't know if he really asked the media to refer to him by that title. He probably did around the late 80s, early 90s although it does originate from the media (a 1984 article), not from MJ himself as some tried to suggest with the dismissive "self-titled" thing. But I felt the media tried so hard to dismiss him of the title, like "exposing" him of supposedly asking MTV to use it or the constant attachment of "self-titled" to it. (Not any more since his death.) The reality is, no matter where it comes from and how much MJs PR used it, it's perfectly and undisputedly deserved.Who else would be the KOP if not MJ? The media easily attaches such titles to white artists (Elvis, Timberlake, Madonna etc.) but somehow spend decades of disputing MJs use of KOP - when in reality he's probably the most deserving of them all of such a title. To me that's what "I had to tell them I ain't second to none" means. White artists often get respect and acknowledgement easily while black artists have to rub it in their face even if it's as obvious as MJ being the KOP. Hearing John Branca talk about it and reading the 1992 Rolling Stone article (Kurt Loder will forever be a douchebag IMO lol), the King of Pop title and him running with it is one of those things that I say "hell yeah" to. If you're not gonna give me my props, I'm gonna show you "I had to tell them I ain't second to none" line is exactly that, respect77 ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Look at the artists who came before him. Sammy, Nat King Cole and others would be performing the hottest clubs and hotels but weren't even allowed to walk through them, having to go through the kitchen. There's a documentary called "Ethnic Notions" that was made in the 1980s that talks about the struggle and setbacks black entertainers dealt with the progress they had made by the time the film was made (around 1987-1988) and after seeing it, and as a black man myself, Sammy's reaction to Michael singing "You Were There" hit HARD one day when I watched it. Sammy grew up in show business. He didn't know about racism, he didn't understand it. He knew about friendship and unity through performance. He went into the military where his bunkmates bullied him, painted him white, wrote the N word on his chest and even urinated on him. All to put him "in his place" A lot of Sammy's attitude in his life later was "You say I can't do it? WATCH ME" A lot of Michael's behavior in the interviews he did in the 90s and in general from 1983 to his death was, in my opinion, in defiance
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Nov 2, 2017 11:03:55 GMT
Imagine a world where those three never existed. Matter of fact, let's not LOL It still amazes me that they were all born within a few weeks in the same year....
I think what this thread is saying really is that Michael (and most artists) really did fuck up a lot PR wise over the years and made mistakes.
Like we all do.
But MJ's/Madonna's etc. mistakes are magnified because of who they are and also if they make a mistake, they make it in front of millions.
Sometimes these mistakes are planned & stupid (Janet's Superbowl), sometimes just spur of the moment getting carried away (Blanket on the balcony). But I'd hate to have every mistake I'd made carried like an albatross around my neck for the rest of my life.
Going back to MJ around the LWMJ time, I prefer to think a lot of it (not the Gavin section) he was medicated, he didn't seem himself, and between this & the 2001 MSG, I like to block it out. It's not the MJ I remember & love.
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Post by jaywonder on Nov 2, 2017 11:12:33 GMT
Imagine a world where those three never existed. Matter of fact, let's not LOL It still amazes me that they were all born within a few weeks in the same year....
I think what this thread is saying really is that Michael (and most artists) really did fuck up a lot PR wise over the years and made mistakes.
Like we all do.
But MJ's/Madonna's etc. mistakes are magnified because of who they are and also if they make a mistake, they make it in front of millions.
Sometimes these mistakes are planned & stupid (Janet's Superbowl), sometimes just spur of the moment getting carried away (Blanket on the balcony). But I'd hate to have every mistake I'd made carried like an albatross around my neck for the rest of my life.
Going back to MJ around the LWMJ time, I prefer to think a lot of it (not the Gavin section) he was medicated, he didn't seem himself, and between this & the 2001 MSG, I like to block it out. It's not the MJ I remember & love.
True, although some stunts lay the groundwork for how artists promote themselves now. Where do we stand on Madonna's Sex book and the Justify My Love video? LOL If it's the reason we had to endure Miley Cyrus.....LOL
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