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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2023 11:06:07 GMT
From the perspective of a black kid I suppose. I would need more elaboration on that. How did Thriller make black music suffer from a black kid's perspective? I don't know, you'd have to ask him.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Dec 1, 2023 11:12:45 GMT
I would need more elaboration on that. How did Thriller make black music suffer from a black kid's perspective? I don't know, you'd have to ask him. I thought you understood because you said you liked his perspective. I understand if someone says Thriller's success was bad for MJ since it made every subsequent album look like a failure if it didn't achieve the same astronomical numbers. And the pressures it brought with it. I understand that perspective. But black music in general? Was it a bad thing that Prince got his chance after Thriller's success? Was it a bad thing that MTV started playing more black artists or that black music made a comeback on Top 100 radio? Unless someone is a segregationist snob and thinks music by black artists should be strictly made appeal to only black people (and it's a bad thing if it appeals to a wider audience - echoes of the whole "sellout" charge that successful black artists who managed to cross over always got) or if someone thinks it should only be played in segregated spaces with a black audience and it's a bad thing if it gets mainstream attention.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2023 11:14:48 GMT
I don't know, you'd have to ask him. I thought you understood because you said you liked his perspective. I understand if someone says Thriller's success was bad for MJ since it made every subsequent album look like a failure if it didn't achieve the same astronomical numbers. And the pressures it brought with it. I understand that perspective. But black music in general? Was it a bad thing that Prince got his chance after Thriller's success? Was it a bad thing that MTV started playing more black artists or that black music made a comeback on Top 100 radio? Unless someone is a segregationist snob and thinks music by black artists should be strictly made appeal to only black people (and it's a bad thing if it appeals to a wider audience) or if someone thinks it should only be played in segregated spaces with a black audience and it's a bad thing if it gets mainstream attention. Nope. I threw in "I suppose" cos I don't know. His post didn't upset me so I just took it as a nice post looking at Thriller from a different perspective tbh.
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Post by MattyJam on Dec 1, 2023 11:16:33 GMT
I don't know, you'd have to ask him. I thought you understood because you said you liked his perspective. I understand if someone says Thriller's success was bad for MJ since it made every subsequent album look like a failure if it didn't achieve the same astronomical numbers. And the pressures it brought with it. I understand that perspective. But black music in general? Was it a bad thing that Prince got his chance after Thriller's success? Was it a bad thing that MTV started playing more black artists or that black music made a comeback on Top 100 radio? Unless someone is a segregationist snob and thinks music by black artists should be strictly made appeal to only black people (and it's a bad thing if it appeals to a wider audience - echoes of the whole "sellout" charge that successful black artists who managed to cross over always got) or if someone thinks it should only be played in segregated spaces with a black audience and it's a bad thing if it gets mainstream attention. To be honest, I've always gotten serious music snobbery vibes from Questlove. It always kind of irked me how he positions himself as some kind of authority on black music, when in reality, he's just a fan with a platform.
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Post by WildStyle on Dec 1, 2023 14:56:09 GMT
I thought you understood because you said you liked his perspective. I understand if someone says Thriller's success was bad for MJ since it made every subsequent album look like a failure if it didn't achieve the same astronomical numbers. And the pressures it brought with it. I understand that perspective. But black music in general? Was it a bad thing that Prince got his chance after Thriller's success? Was it a bad thing that MTV started playing more black artists or that black music made a comeback on Top 100 radio? Unless someone is a segregationist snob and thinks music by black artists should be strictly made appeal to only black people (and it's a bad thing if it appeals to a wider audience - echoes of the whole "sellout" charge that successful black artists who managed to cross over always got) or if someone thinks it should only be played in segregated spaces with a black audience and it's a bad thing if it gets mainstream attention. To be honest, I've always gotten serious music snobbery vibes from Questlove. It always kind of irked me how he positions himself as some kind of authority on black music, when in reality, he's just a fan with a platform. Well, he's a bit more than just a fan with a platform. He's a highly successful and accomplished producer and musician and somewhat of a historian. At the same time, nobody has to agree with all of his opinions.
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Post by MattyJam on Dec 1, 2023 15:11:59 GMT
To be honest, I've always gotten serious music snobbery vibes from Questlove. It always kind of irked me how he positions himself as some kind of authority on black music, when in reality, he's just a fan with a platform. Well, he's a bit more than just a fan with a platform. He's a highly successful and accomplished producer and musician and somewhat of a historian. At the same time, nobody has to agree with all of his opinions. He claims to be a historian, but I don't see what qualifies him for that other than him positioning himself as a constant talking head. I know he's a producer/musician. Although I'd argue he's never really made anything of note himself, without latching on to the talent of others. Always made me laugh when he used to talk smack about Prince not having made a good record since 1988, when it's debatable whether Quest has written a single memorable piece of music in his entire career. But opinions are like assholes etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2023 19:46:12 GMT
To be honest, I've always gotten serious music snobbery vibes from Questlove. It always kind of irked me how he positions himself as some kind of authority on black music, when in reality, he's just a fan with a platform. Well, he's a bit more than just a fan with a platform. He's a highly successful and accomplished producer and musician and somewhat of a historian. At the same time, nobody has to agree with all of his opinions. I think his film Summer of Soul backs all this up. Plus he talks about MJ like no one else does. Not everyone has to talk about him like he's a diety, nor does everyone have to agree with him. I appreciate that his posts are more than "miss you king". Anyway, Thriller.
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Post by WildStyle on Dec 1, 2023 23:43:43 GMT
I don't know, you'd have to ask him. I thought you understood because you said you liked his perspective. I understand if someone says Thriller's success was bad for MJ since it made every subsequent album look like a failure if it didn't achieve the same astronomical numbers. And the pressures it brought with it. I understand that perspective. But black music in general? Was it a bad thing that Prince got his chance after Thriller's success? Was it a bad thing that MTV started playing more black artists or that black music made a comeback on Top 100 radio? Unless someone is a segregationist snob and thinks music by black artists should be strictly made appeal to only black people (and it's a bad thing if it appeals to a wider audience - echoes of the whole "sellout" charge that successful black artists who managed to cross over always got) or if someone thinks it should only be played in segregated spaces with a black audience and it's a bad thing if it gets mainstream attention. Basing it on what he said just before the black music comment, my guess is that he's saying black artists and or record companies started prioritising glitzy and more commercial pop oriented music, chasing commercial success before artistic merit. There's also the criticism that after the popularity of music videos, artists had to look a certain way to get any support.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Dec 2, 2023 4:40:43 GMT
But isn't it a bit of a snob take? It's not like glitzy, commercial pop didn't exist before. Disco era anyone? Which BTW is also "black music". But we could go back further. The early Beatles was also "just commercial pop". Motown was commercial pop. Berry Gordy was very concerned with "crossing over" and commercial success. (And I suspect it's where MJ got his concern for commercial success from.) Was Motown a negative influence on black music because of that?
Because I think the implication of what he says is that Thriller itself is just glitzy, worthless, commercial pop and was a negative influence on the development of popular music. I strongly disagree with this. I also disagree that the music video was a negative development. BTW, all these are snob talking points since the 80s. I don't think there's any unique perspective in what he's voicing here.
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Post by MattyJam on Dec 2, 2023 5:53:49 GMT
Well, he's a bit more than just a fan with a platform. He's a highly successful and accomplished producer and musician and somewhat of a historian. At the same time, nobody has to agree with all of his opinions. I think his film Summer of Soul backs all this up. Plus he talks about MJ like no one else does. Not everyone has to talk about him like he's a diety, nor does everyone have to agree with him. I appreciate that his posts are more than "miss you king". Anyway, Thriller. IMO, he's just a pretentious hipster contrarian. It's fashionable in hipster circles to be critical of Thriller's impact, just as its fashionable to write-off the last 28yrs of Prince's career, which Quest has done ad nauseum. He never killed my cat, but he is a pretentious twat. He would brag for years about having unreleased Prince material other fans didn't have access to. He then came out once the estate started putting all this material out and said the songs had lost their shine to him now they've become publicly available. I'm sorry, but that is douchebag territory. Anyway, where can I watch the Thriller 40 doc?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 6:20:28 GMT
Another pic of MJ and Paul I hadn't seen before in the studio.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Dec 2, 2023 7:38:02 GMT
Anyway, where can I watch the Thriller 40 doc? If you have MTV European you can watch it there for free. Other versions of MTV might have it, but not all of them. If you don't have any MTV that will air it, the following streaming services will air it: Paramount+ Sky Showtime
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Post by WildStyle on Dec 2, 2023 8:56:46 GMT
But isn't it a bit of a snob take? It's not like glitzy, commercial pop didn't exist before. Disco era anyone? Which BTW is also "black music". But we could go back further. The early Beatles was also "just commercial pop". Motown was commercial pop. Berry Gordy was very concerned with "crossing over" and commercial success. (And I suspect it's where MJ got his concern for commercial success from.) Was Motown a negative influence on black music because of that? Because I think the implication of what he says is that Thriller itself is just glitzy, worthless, commercial pop and was a negative influence on the development of popular music. I strongly disagree with this. I also disagree that the music video was a negative development. BTW, all these are snob talking points since the 80s. I don't think there's any unique perspective in what he's voicing here. Well he wasn't explicit in saying any of that. It was just a general pondering on his part. But to answer some of your points. Motown could be called commercial pop, but I'd call it a commercial pop/soul/jazz mixture. It was innovative and not trend following. It brought a sophistication to pop that was outside the norm with the big orchestral arrangements and jazz musicians as the session band. Also later on you had more experimental and not traditionally commercial sounding records by Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye coming out. The latter point is maybe what Questlove is talking about. That maybe there was less room for that stuff as labels chased a different look and sound. Honestly, nowhere in that post did I see anything negative about MJ or Thriller so I don't see the need to get worked up about it. Just a guy with a pretty good knowledge of black music pondering something.
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respect77
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Post by respect77 on Dec 2, 2023 9:20:15 GMT
Record labels are business enterprises, so they have always looked for what's commercially viable and what has the most prospect for commercial success. Thriller didn't do that. And if he thinks Thriller influenced the industry towards shallow, glitzy, commercial pop then that to me means he has a negative view of what Thriller is. But the same can be said of Thriller what you just said in Motown's defense.
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Post by WildStyle on Dec 2, 2023 9:41:59 GMT
Record labels are business enterprises, so they have always looked for what's commercially viable and what has the most prospect for commercial success. Thriller didn't do that. And if he thinks Thriller influenced the industry towards shallow, glitzy, commercial pop then that to me means he has a negative view of what Thriller is. But the same can be said of Thriller what you just said in Motown's defense. To be fair, glitzy was my word. I don't think Questlove would disagree with anybody here about the artistic merits of Thriller. I think it's fair to say that any phenomenon on the level of Thriller is going to have massive impacts and not every single one of them will necessarily be positive. Also that any negative impacts don't reflect on the album, but on the business itself.
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