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Post by SmoothGangsta on Oct 3, 2021 1:49:42 GMT
I know this is an old thread but I'll post here anyway. I have definitely seen this sentiment, and I think particularly in the UK it came from that specific performance. Whilst I think that the performance came off in a certain way when you watch it, I don't think MJ intended it to come across that way. I feel like a lot of people let that directly reflect their perception of MJ as a person, don't know if that's out of the scope of this thread but it's something I've noticed. A few of my friends and family have brought it up to me like it's an all encompassing thing lol.
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Post by HIStoric on Oct 3, 2021 10:50:37 GMT
I know this is an old thread but I'll post here anyway. I have definitely seen this sentiment, and I think particularly in the UK it came from that specific performance. Whilst I think that the performance came off in a certain way when you watch it, I don't think MJ intended it to come across that way. I feel like a lot of people let that directly reflect their perception of MJ as a person, don't know if that's out of the scope of this thread but it's something I've noticed. A few of my friends and family have brought it up to me like it's an all encompassing thing lol. I can see why a few of the publicity things he did at the time might have got people thinking that. You have the very over-the-top promotional film for HIStory (though I'm not sure where that was shown in '95? MTV and snippets in ads I assume?), him floating massive statues of himself down the River Thames, performances of Earth Song that can easily be interpreted in a 'saviour' manner. Like I can understand why he was doing it - effectively dick swinging to show he was still at the top, that he was going no-where after the allegations (and the statistics did back him up), but it's also really not hard to see how it can come off as excessive self-importance or self-indulgence to people either. He was playing a very fine line there.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 3, 2021 11:47:47 GMT
I know this is an old thread but I'll post here anyway. I have definitely seen this sentiment, and I think particularly in the UK it came from that specific performance. Whilst I think that the performance came off in a certain way when you watch it, I don't think MJ intended it to come across that way. I feel like a lot of people let that directly reflect their perception of MJ as a person, don't know if that's out of the scope of this thread but it's something I've noticed. A few of my friends and family have brought it up to me like it's an all encompassing thing lol. Michael was doing the Transfiguration of Christ at the Brits and the WMAs. The Brits especially though. From the Gospel of Matthew. Seems to me that was a very deliberate choice, so no wonder many people viewed it as a bit of megalomania. Michael never did that again, for good reason I think. In the Transfiguration, "Jesus himself as the connecting point, acting as the bridge between heaven and earth." I don't think people can be blamed too much for looking at Michael's performance in that light. He was radiant in dazzling white once he stripped the outer layers off and the cast coming up to touch him en route to the spiritual heaven behind him has very, very strong religious connotations there. Something like Brunei July 1996 or the 1999 Bridge Of No Return are much better, much less religiously infused concepts. People related to those ones much better overall.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 3, 2021 15:14:43 GMT
Yeah, the ending of some of the ES performances never sat right with me.
I totally sympathised with those that said he had a God complex at that time. The HIStory trailer, the HIStory cover (which I hated at the time, but started to love along time later, when I started to see it as a total FU to his detractors).
But the end to ES, I'm not fully sure what the message was if not comparing himself or playing the part of a messiah.
Aside from that, it's easily in my Top 5 MJ songs, I never get sick of playing it or seeing the short film which was one of his best.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 3, 2021 15:31:31 GMT
I don't see this "so many people hate Earth Song" thing. Not at all. I think the topic's title is an exaggeration in itself.
As for the Brits performance. I always found it odd why people who don't come across as particularly religious (like Jarvis Cocker) would find it "offensive". Funny how you can blaspheme and ridicule Jesus and Christianity all you want in art (including in much hyped movies, books or some rock songs) and no one bats an eyelid (the cynical Western critics will even often praise such things), but "OMG, Michael Jackson stretched his arms during his performance, we are all suddenly so offended on behalf of Christianity". I just find that funny.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 3, 2021 15:47:12 GMT
I don't see this "so many people hate Earth Song" thing. Not at all. I think the topic's title is an exaggeration in itself. As for the Brits performance. I always found it odd why people who don't come across as particularly religious (like Jarvis Cocker) would find it "offensive". Funny how you can blaspheme and ridicule Jesus and Christianity all you want in art (including in much hyped movies, books or some rock songs) and no one bats an eyelid (the cynical Western critics will even often praise such things), but "OMG, Michael Jackson stretched his arms during his performance, we are all suddenly so offended on behalf of Christianity". I just find that funny. Yeah, even i though I find this part of the performance odd, it was an excuse on Jarvis's part. It was more that the mid 90s was a backlash against the big 80s American superstars and was all about home grown stars that were more the boy/girl next door lad/ladette image. All Chris Evans TFI Friday etc... I guess it was the equivalent of the Grunge movement in the US. I think they both have political meanings too as they represent a backlash against the capitalism and the selfishness of the 80s. And no-one represents the 80s more than MJ (and Madonna who also saw a massive backlash in the first half of the 90s). Of course the fact that MJ was still stupidly popular even despite the backlash and the allegations is hysterical. Earth Song being his biggest ever hit at the time and the Christmas Number One is symbolically brilliant.
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 3, 2021 18:34:46 GMT
Yeah, the ending of some of the ES performances never sat right with me. I totally sympathised with those that said he had a God complex at that time. The HIStory trailer, the HIStory cover (which I hated at the time, but started to love along time later, when I started to see it as a total FU to his detractors). But the end to ES, I'm not fully sure what the message was if not comparing himself or playing the part of a messiah. Aside from that, it's easily in my Top 5 MJ songs, I never get sick of playing it or seeing the short film which was one of his best. I never looked at the ES performances that way, tbh. Whilst he is clearly portraying Christ, arms outstretched, all in white, "healing" the commoners, it's a fucking performance piece. It doesn't mean he literally thinks of himself that way in real life. Madonna performed Live To Tell on a cross with a crown of thorns on her head, which is a far more brazen depiction of the Christ and nobody said she had a God-complex. If she can do that, why can't MJ do what he did? As always, different rules for MJ it seems.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 3, 2021 18:43:57 GMT
Yeah, the ending of some of the ES performances never sat right with me. I totally sympathised with those that said he had a God complex at that time. The HIStory trailer, the HIStory cover (which I hated at the time, but started to love along time later, when I started to see it as a total FU to his detractors). But the end to ES, I'm not fully sure what the message was if not comparing himself or playing the part of a messiah. Aside from that, it's easily in my Top 5 MJ songs, I never get sick of playing it or seeing the short film which was one of his best. I never looked at the ES performances that way, tbh. Whilst he is clearly portraying Christ, arms outstretched, all in white, "healing" the commoners, it's a fucking performance piece. It doesn't mean he literally thinks of himself that way in real life. Madonna performed Live To Tell on a cross with a crown of thorns on her head, which is a far more brazen depiction of the Christ and nobody said she had a God-complex. If she can do that, why can't MJ do what he did? Different rules for MJ it seems. Don't think so. MJ clearly 'looked' like he was healing the kids. Maybe it was just a metaphor for what he really wanted to do (heal the world, take all the children's suffering away).
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Post by MattyJam on Oct 3, 2021 18:47:36 GMT
I never looked at the ES performances that way, tbh. Whilst he is clearly portraying Christ, arms outstretched, all in white, "healing" the commoners, it's a fucking performance piece. It doesn't mean he literally thinks of himself that way in real life. Madonna performed Live To Tell on a cross with a crown of thorns on her head, which is a far more brazen depiction of the Christ and nobody said she had a God-complex. If she can do that, why can't MJ do what he did? Different rules for MJ it seems. Don't think so. MJ clearly 'looked' like he was healing the kids. Maybe it was just a metaphor for what he really wanted to do (heal the world, take all the children's suffering away). Of course it was a metaphor. And the Britpop movement was too pretentious and up its own ass at the time to take it as a piece of theatre.
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TonyR
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Post by TonyR on Oct 3, 2021 20:11:48 GMT
Don't think so. MJ clearly 'looked' like he was healing the kids. Maybe it was just a metaphor for what he really wanted to do (heal the world, take all the children's suffering away). Of course it was a metaphor. And the Britpop movement was too pretentious and up its own ass at the time to take it as a piece of theatre. Either way, I'm just glad it was such a huge hit. I'd have hated for Earth Song to be as unknown as Who Is It.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 3, 2021 21:41:18 GMT
Yeah, the ending of some of the ES performances never sat right with me. I totally sympathised with those that said he had a God complex at that time. The HIStory trailer, the HIStory cover (which I hated at the time, but started to love along time later, when I started to see it as a total FU to his detractors). But the end to ES, I'm not fully sure what the message was if not comparing himself or playing the part of a messiah. Aside from that, it's easily in my Top 5 MJ songs, I never get sick of playing it or seeing the short film which was one of his best. I never looked at the ES performances that way, tbh. Whilst he is clearly portraying Christ, arms outstretched, all in white, "healing" the commoners, it's a fucking performance piece. It doesn't mean he literally thinks of himself that way in real life. Madonna performed Live To Tell on a cross with a crown of thorns on her head, which is a far more brazen depiction of the Christ and nobody said she had a God-complex. If she can do that, why can't MJ do what he did? As always, different rules for MJ it seems. Michael did say he believed he could heal people, especially children. Sure, not literally like Christ, but he believed he could by his presence, hugs or voice. He even believed he could have touched Hitler inside enough to turn from the path of evil. With Michael, I don't think performances like Earth Song is strictly theatre. It's more like an extension of himself, his personal beliefs and his personal power, if you like. At any rate, I think its very telling he only did that particular style of performance twice and only in 1996. Anyway, Michael's words on healing in this context: And in regards to Arvizo's cancer at the time: You can see how a lot of people felt Michael had a bit of a Messiah complex going on. Rightly or wrongly.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 3, 2021 21:51:25 GMT
I know this is an old thread but I'll post here anyway. I have definitely seen this sentiment, and I think particularly in the UK it came from that specific performance. Whilst I think that the performance came off in a certain way when you watch it, I don't think MJ intended it to come across that way. I feel like a lot of people let that directly reflect their perception of MJ as a person, don't know if that's out of the scope of this thread but it's something I've noticed. A few of my friends and family have brought it up to me like it's an all encompassing thing lol. I can see why a few of the publicity things he did at the time might have got people thinking that. You have the very over-the-top promotional film for HIStory (though I'm not sure where that was shown in '95? MTV and snippets in ads I assume?), him floating massive statues of himself down the River Thames, performances of Earth Song that can easily be interpreted in a 'saviour' manner. Like I can understand why he was doing it - effectively dick swinging to show he was still at the top, that he was going no-where after the allegations (and the statistics did back him up), but it's also really not hard to see how it can come off as excessive self-importance or self-indulgence to people either. He was playing a very fine line there. By Christ, I loved all the HIStory promo including the golden statue at the time! Still do as I dig extreme levels of confidence in people to the point where they make their own rules. The closest we have to stars doing what MJ did vis a vis massive, indulgent self-promotion today is, I believe, Cristiano Ronaldo. His goal celebration has a similar function to Michael's frozen statue stance after the toaster. Michael certainly would've been able to identify with Cristiano's saying: And: A lot of people find all that arrogant, but I love the level of confidence and self-belief people like Michael and Cristiano show. It's awe inspiring, I think.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 4, 2021 3:42:29 GMT
I never looked at the ES performances that way, tbh. Whilst he is clearly portraying Christ, arms outstretched, all in white, "healing" the commoners, it's a fucking performance piece. It doesn't mean he literally thinks of himself that way in real life. Madonna performed Live To Tell on a cross with a crown of thorns on her head, which is a far more brazen depiction of the Christ and nobody said she had a God-complex. If she can do that, why can't MJ do what he did? As always, different rules for MJ it seems. Michael did say he believed he could heal people, especially children. Sure, not literally like Christ, but he believed he could by his presence, hugs or voice. He even believed he could have touched Hitler inside enough to turn from the path of evil. With Michael, I don't think performances like Earth Song is strictly theatre. It's more like an extension of himself, his personal beliefs and his personal power, if you like. At any rate, I think its very telling he only did that particular style of performance twice and only in 1996. Anyway, Michael's words on healing in this context: And in regards to Arvizo's cancer at the time: You can see how a lot of people felt Michael had a bit of a Messiah complex going on. Rightly or wrongly. If you are a believing Christian, thinking that you can heal people doesn't equal to thinking you are Jesus himself. In fact, the Bible itself says belief in Jesus gives believers the power to heal. I don't believe in this, but if we are talking about Christianity here, just because someone says he can heal people it doesn't mean he thinks he's the Messiah. Also, it doesn't even have to be a Christian belief. How many people believe in the healing powers of things like brain control, positive thinking, love etc?
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Post by Russg on Oct 4, 2021 6:00:06 GMT
Don't think so. MJ clearly 'looked' like he was healing the kids. Maybe it was just a metaphor for what he really wanted to do (heal the world, take all the children's suffering away). Of course it was a metaphor. And the Britpop movement was too pretentious and up its own ass at the time to take it as a piece of theatre. Only on an MJ forum will you find the terms "pretentious" and "up its own ass" being used with a straight face when defending MJ posing as Jesus Christ.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 4, 2021 6:55:52 GMT
Michael did say he believed he could heal people, especially children. Sure, not literally like Christ, but he believed he could by his presence, hugs or voice. He even believed he could have touched Hitler inside enough to turn from the path of evil. With Michael, I don't think performances like Earth Song is strictly theatre. It's more like an extension of himself, his personal beliefs and his personal power, if you like. At any rate, I think its very telling he only did that particular style of performance twice and only in 1996. Anyway, Michael's words on healing in this context: And in regards to Arvizo's cancer at the time: You can see how a lot of people felt Michael had a bit of a Messiah complex going on. Rightly or wrongly. If you are a believing Christian, thinking that you can heal people doesn't equal to thinking you are Jesus himself. In fact, the Bible itself says belief in Jesus gives believers the power to heal. I don't believe in this, but if we are talking about Christianity here, just because someone says he can heal people it doesn't mean he thinks he's the Messiah. Also, it doesn't even have to be a Christian belief. How many people believe in the healing powers of things like brain control, positive thinking, love etc? The point is Michael's belief in his healing powers was reflected in the Brits and WMAs performances. Hence, himself transfigured on stage. Other believers are irrelevant to the point here. Michael's relevant and he chose the most powerful Christian imagery to perform on stage. I'd hazard a guess Michael possibly felt others had a point when the controversy died down. The Transfiguration of Christ scene never appeared in Earth Song again.
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