|
Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 11:17:00 GMT
To me it all feels like excuses for what is really a bad plot, to be honest.
You don't have to be perfect to not want to kill your nephew whose only sin is that he has bad thoughts. There is a whole world between being perfect and THAT. I mean, it's not just 'bad thoughts' - there's a lot of foretelling Luke does through the force, and as we've seen in Star Wars many times there's often some sort of truth to this (hence my paragraph on the whole foretelling thing). But I'm happy to just respectfully agree to disagree. I personally don't think it's bad plot. Could it be improved? Sure like anything, but I could see it happening to Luke. No matter how you look at it this trilogy screwed up the Skywalkers real bad (the title "The Rise of Skywalker" must have been given tongue in cheek). Basically it cancelled (LOL) their whole legacy: - Luke is a manic attempted murderer of his own nephew. - Anakin did not bring balance to shit. Palpatine is still alive. - The only Skywalker offspring is dead. - Palpatine won all across the board. That's it. That's the conclusion of the supposed "Skywalker saga". He can beat death! So don't be so sure he is really dead this time. If he survived the explosion of the Death Star, he can survive anything. His offspring is the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived, apparently. Without any real training, and all. Granddaddy must be proud. She may get bored one day of being good and turn to the Dark Side. Don't rule that out, if Luke could go to the Dark Side and try to kill his nephew AFTER everything he has done for the Light Side. So it turns out SW was about the Palpatines, after all, not the Skywalkers. They are both the real villains and the heroes of this saga. Definitely they are the most powerful ones - whichever side they take. Yeah, I have to agree with a good amount here. I always felt like that the sequel trilogy was a bit prologue-y, but I was fine if it was done well and contributed to the overall story.
But now, because of Episode 9, it feels like it's largely unnecessary because we end up back at the end of Episode 6. What exactly is different in the galaxy now? The Empire/First Order is gone, which means the Rebellion/Resistance can now grow into another Republic. Palpatine is dead BUT (and I was discussing this today actually), we have literally no cause to believe this is the final time he died. Abrams does not explain how he survived, or what you could do to finish him off for good. You could've literally had that dagger that they carry around for half the movie be some special object that has to kill Palpatine to finish him for good - that'd essentially solve this issue! But nope. Now like the end of Episode 6, at the end of Episode 9 we have no reason to believe he might never come back.
As for the Skywalker line being finished, totally fine. If anything, that definitively concludes The Skywalker Saga. However, it feels wrong that a Palpatine ultimately comes out on top to finish the saga. Even if she now says she's a Skywalker, or how deep down she has more pure intentions than her granddaddy, the fact still remains that Abrams decided to return to this narrative that bloodline IS important. If they had kept in line with The Last Jedi and kept Rey as a no-one, then it'd be much better if she kept alive because she isn't a fucking Palpatine!
The balance thing is interesting depending on how you interpret it, because it can be interpreted in many ways. There's the idea that bringing balance means defeating all evil, in which case you're right. Anakin failed because Palpatine just walks right back into play a few episodes later with little explanation.
There is still one way he brings balance though that hasn't been effected by the events in Episode 9. In a way, he brings balance to the force through the events in Episode 3. At the beginning of the film, there were 10,000 Jedi and 2 Sith Lords. It's heavily biased towards the light side of the force. By the end of Episode 3, beginning of Episode 4, almost no Jedi remained, making it much more balanced because there was a much more equal number of Jedi and Sith remaining in the universe.
I've always seen those as the two interpretations of Anakin bringing balance to the force, but that first interpretation is pretty much undone now. There is the whole discussion of prophecy accuracy... but I mean, eh. There's always going to be evil in one form or another and upto Episode 8, the Sith WERE destroyed because neither Kylo nor Snoke were part of the Sith Order... but now by bringing back Palpatine suddenly and having all these Sith followers of his who have been in hiding all this time...
sigh.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 11:26:45 GMT
To me it all feels like excuses for what is really a bad plot, to be honest.
You don't have to be perfect to not want to kill your nephew whose only sin is that he has bad thoughts. There is a whole world between being perfect and THAT. I mean, it's not just 'bad thoughts' - there's a lot of foretelling Luke does through the force, and as we've seen in Star Wars many times there's often some sort of truth to this (hence my paragraph on the whole foretelling thing). But hasn't Luke learnt anything by the time he is an old master? Like Yoda said (and you quoted that too) the future is always in motion. It is not a set thing. WE create our future, in the present. You can't kill someone based on something that may not even turn out to be that way. And he also should have learnt from Vader's story. How the things he did to avoid Padme's death are what eventually led to her death. Like you said, the same thing happened here. But Luke had these stories before him to learn from. And he is supposedly an old and wise Jedi master now, not some hot-headed youngling like Anakin was in The Revenge of the Sith or Luke was in the OT. He should know better by now.
|
|
|
Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 12:29:51 GMT
I mean, it's not just 'bad thoughts' - there's a lot of foretelling Luke does through the force, and as we've seen in Star Wars many times there's often some sort of truth to this (hence my paragraph on the whole foretelling thing). But hasn't Luke learnt anything by the time he is an old master? Like Yoda said (and you quoted that too) the future is always in motion. It is not a set thing. WE create our future, in the present. You can't kill someone based on something that may not even turn out to be that way. And he also should have learnt from Vader's story. How the things he did to avoid Padme's death are what eventually led to her death. Like you said, the same thing happened here. But Luke had these stories before him to learn from. And he is supposedly an old and wise Jedi master now, not some hot-headed youngling like Anakin was in The Revenge of the Sith or Luke was in the OT. He should know better by now. Hmm. Yeah I see what you mean.
What I put it down to is this, all of the foretellings shown in the Saga so far have had some varying degrees of truth to them. There have been times it's happened WITHOUT the foreteller intervening, and there have been times it has happened BECAUSE of the foreteller intervening.
So the real big question, is do you act on it or not? Master Yoda warns against this, because indeed it is always in motion and your influence could, or could not, cause that outcome. It's a dangerous thing, and certainly the ability to makes change is extremely enticing.
We've seen it not work out in Luke's favour before, but at the same time, surely it must have worked to his advantage many times too? I think this is a fair assumption because if it had never had, then Luke would never ever trust it period.
So what we've established is that judging the future is incredibly dangerous because of how volatile it is, but it also must have worked in his favour before which is why he's struggling to decide whether or not to trust it this time around - especially with so much at stake (remember how Luke describes it). That's what I put it down to.
I think it's also interesting to note that once he had made a choice, he did quickly and successfully stop himself carrying it out - coming to his senses and giving him the opportunity to possibly approach this another way. He did not actually harm the boy in any way, and what he had done so far was completely undoable. The only issue was that Kylo woke up, but if he hadn't, then for all we know it could've turned out differently. But well, that's the risk you take.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 12:42:10 GMT
So they made Rey a Palpatine instead of a long lost offspring of Luke to avoid the awkwardness with Kylo? Well...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:02:14 GMT
Historic/Respect I'm not responding til Im at a laptop. This is quite interesting.
|
|
|
Post by SmoothGangsta on Dec 26, 2019 13:04:38 GMT
What Luke did is very much within his character as he has shown throughout the OT. He was often hot headed and also whiney a lot of the time. Fans just like to remember the heroic stuff he did and not his whole character. It also makes sense that Luke did what he did as we now know that Snoke was Palpatine, Luke sensed the greatest evil in the galaxy within him. This was honestly all sparked by Mark Hamil who later admitted he was wrong about Luke's character being off after watching the movie.
I also don't understand why fans keep saying "oh that's just making stuff up to justify lazy writing" when it's literally written into the story. They don't film the movie and then go "oh no we don't have a reason for this thing let's make it up hehe". Was having a discussion with someone on another forum about how Luke died at the end and I said it's very evident in the film that he gave the last of his strength to the force, their response was the generic lazy writing response. If something is clearly conveyed in the film then it is what the writers wanted to happen, just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that it was lazy.
Also, blaming what happens in TROS on Rian Johnson is cringey tbh. Fans are legitimately salivating to blame him for anything. It was up to JJ to not make a bad movie and have it feel like it was a part of a trilogy, he instead decided to pretend the last film didn't exist and just make a up a new story which isn't good filmmaking and caused the end of the saga to feel rushed. Also, JJ should not be allowed to write, he's a great director but boy is he bad at writing.
|
|
|
Post by SmoothGangsta on Dec 26, 2019 13:08:24 GMT
I also don't have a problem with Palpatine returning in general as it's been said for a long time in Star Wars that he has been obsessed with cheating death, just in this film it isn't explained properly and becomes a problem as a result. I'd also say that Anakin did do his part as the Emperor does confirm that he died.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:13:01 GMT
What Luke did is very much within his character as he has shown throughout the OT. He was often hot headed and also whiney a lot of the time. Fans just like to remember the heroic stuff he did and not his whole character. It also makes sense that Luke did what he did as we now know that Snoke was Palpatine, Luke sensed the greatest evil in the galaxy within him. This was honestly all sparked by Mark Hamil who later admitted he was wrong about Luke's character being off after watching the movie. I also don't understand why fans keep saying "oh that's just making stuff up to justify lazy writing" when it's literally written into the story. They don't film the movie and then go "oh no we don't have a reason for this thing let's make it up hehe". Was having a discussion with someone on another forum about how Luke died at the end and I said it's very evident in the film that he gave the last of his strength to the force, their response was the generic lazy writing response. If something is clearly conveyed in the film then it is what the writers wanted to happen, just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that it was lazy. Also, blaming what happens in TROS on Rian Johnson is cringey tbh. Fans are legitimately salivating to blame him for anything. It was up to JJ to not make a bad movie and have it feel like it was a part of a trilogy, he instead decided to pretend the last film didn't exist and just make a up a new story which isn't good filmmaking. Disagree with first and last paragraphs here. Seems to me Johnson set out to make HIS mark on the franchise rather than progress a story that he was given. What you've said was up to JJ also applied to Johnson. Im not blaming Johnson for TROS cos I liked it. Im blaming Johnson for TLJ. I like TLJ a bit more cos of TROS. Theres absolutely no defending Finn and Rose's poxy side mission. Utterly pointless and disjointed the story. Leaving Poe to meet Rey at the END of the 2nd film? Johnson made a film a lot of people liked, glad they did. He made the worst Star Wars by a country mile for me, so he deserves the criticism (not the mental Star Wars fan level criticism mind you) he gets. Hamill was right to have the balls to tell Johnson he didnt agree with certain things.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:13:38 GMT
I also don't have a problem with Palpatine returning in general as it's been said for a long time in Star Wars that he has been obsessed with cheating death, just in this film it isn't explained properly and becomes a problem as a result. I'd also say that Anakin did do his part as the Emperor does confirm that he died. I liked Papz coming back. Literally had no issue here, much like I'd never had an issue with Maul surviving his.... mauling
|
|
|
Post by SmoothGangsta on Dec 26, 2019 13:19:40 GMT
What Luke did is very much within his character as he has shown throughout the OT. He was often hot headed and also whiney a lot of the time. Fans just like to remember the heroic stuff he did and not his whole character. It also makes sense that Luke did what he did as we now know that Snoke was Palpatine, Luke sensed the greatest evil in the galaxy within him. This was honestly all sparked by Mark Hamil who later admitted he was wrong about Luke's character being off after watching the movie. I also don't understand why fans keep saying "oh that's just making stuff up to justify lazy writing" when it's literally written into the story. They don't film the movie and then go "oh no we don't have a reason for this thing let's make it up hehe". Was having a discussion with someone on another forum about how Luke died at the end and I said it's very evident in the film that he gave the last of his strength to the force, their response was the generic lazy writing response. If something is clearly conveyed in the film then it is what the writers wanted to happen, just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that it was lazy. Also, blaming what happens in TROS on Rian Johnson is cringey tbh. Fans are legitimately salivating to blame him for anything. It was up to JJ to not make a bad movie and have it feel like it was a part of a trilogy, he instead decided to pretend the last film didn't exist and just make a up a new story which isn't good filmmaking. Disagree with first and last paragraphs here. Seems to me Johnson set out to make HIS mark on the franchise rather than progress a story that he was given. What you've said was up to JJ also applied to Johnson. Im not blaming Johnson for TROS cos I liked it. Im blaming Johnson for TLJ. I like TLJ a bit more cos of TROS. Theres absolutely no defending Finn and Rose's poxy side mission. Utterly pointless and disjointed the story. Leaving Poe to meet Rey at the END of the 2nd film? Johnson made a film a lot of people liked, glad they did. He made the worst Star Wars by a country mile for me, so he deserves the criticism (not the mental Star Wars fan level criticism mind you) he gets. Hamill was right to have the balls to tell Johnson he didnt agree with certain things. Whilst I know we disagree about TLJ it at least led off where the last movie began and continued it's plot points (even if we disagree on our opinions of what was done with them) The obvious path forward was to have Kylo be the big bad, that's clearly set up in TLJ, then JJ is just like "lol the Emperor is back". It's really jarring, and the reasoning for it happening is flimsy at best.
|
|
|
Post by SmoothGangsta on Dec 26, 2019 13:20:42 GMT
I also don't have a problem with Palpatine returning in general as it's been said for a long time in Star Wars that he has been obsessed with cheating death, just in this film it isn't explained properly and becomes a problem as a result. I'd also say that Anakin did do his part as the Emperor does confirm that he died. I liked Papz coming back. Literally had no issue here, much like I'd never had an issue with Maul surviving his.... mauling I liked seeing him again, I just don't think it was a good decision for this trilogy as it makes barely any sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:23:50 GMT
Disagree with first and last paragraphs here. Seems to me Johnson set out to make HIS mark on the franchise rather than progress a story that he was given. What you've said was up to JJ also applied to Johnson. Im not blaming Johnson for TROS cos I liked it. Im blaming Johnson for TLJ. I like TLJ a bit more cos of TROS. Theres absolutely no defending Finn and Rose's poxy side mission. Utterly pointless and disjointed the story. Leaving Poe to meet Rey at the END of the 2nd film? Johnson made a film a lot of people liked, glad they did. He made the worst Star Wars by a country mile for me, so he deserves the criticism (not the mental Star Wars fan level criticism mind you) he gets. Hamill was right to have the balls to tell Johnson he didnt agree with certain things. Whilst I know we disagree about TLJ it at least led off where the last movie began and continued it's plot points (even if we disagree on our opinions of what was done with them) The obvious path forward was to have Kylo be the big bad, that's clearly set up in TLJ, then JJ is just like "lol the Emperor is back". It's really jarring, and the reasoning for it happening is flimsy at best. But I remember saying to you that by the end of TLJ I was so confused as to how I felt about Kylo. Id no idea what I was supposed to think. He was written really confusingly and just thought he was there to tell us "this is a new Star Wars, everything you knew is dead". By the end I didn't take him seriously as a big baddie. Ive done a huge U turn on him now though cos of TROS. Was glad to see him sellotape up his mask. Im looking forward to a TLJ rewatch though now that its all over.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:24:27 GMT
I liked Papz coming back. Literally had no issue here, much like I'd never had an issue with Maul surviving his.... mauling I liked seeing him again, I just don't think it was a good decision for this trilogy as it makes barely any sense. Wasn't Anakin supposed to be in it at one point?
|
|
|
Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 13:30:02 GMT
I also don't have a problem with Palpatine returning in general as it's been said for a long time in Star Wars that he has been obsessed with cheating death, just in this film it isn't explained properly and becomes a problem as a result. I'd also say that Anakin did do his part as the Emperor does confirm that he died. Yeah, I was open to the idea so long as it was executed well and I donโt think it was. It really needed to be explained better, and I think it wouldโve been a lot better if there were more hints in 7 and 8. I remember someone suggesting that if they were going to bring back the Palps, they should have ended TLJ with a scene relating to him to help set things in motion for TROS.
|
|
|
Post by SmoothGangsta on Dec 26, 2019 13:30:02 GMT
I liked seeing him again, I just don't think it was a good decision for this trilogy as it makes barely any sense. Wasn't Anakin supposed to be in it at one point? His voice was in it at the end, but I honestly don't think the rumours about his ghost being it were true.
|
|