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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 6:52:08 GMT
OK, so now sleeping on it a couple of nights my verdict is: it is BAD, and not in the MJ way.
Actually it is atrocious that they gave it the title "The Rise of Skywalker", when in fact this movie is a stab in the back for the Skywalker family. I am more and more angry at this film for making the whole life and legacy of Anakin and Luke null and void - and that to elevate this Mary Sue into this superhero status where she is perfect and she is the one who solves everything. The whole story of the first six episodes is now pissed on: The prophecy about Anakin failed. He did not bring balance to shit since Palpatine is well and alive, plotting like he has always done. Anakin's sacrifice and Luke's legacy is in vain. This movie makes them from heroes to people who tried but failed and weren't after all that special. Rey is the special one. A Palpatine, not a Skywalker.
Meanwhile it is annoying how easy everything comes to Rey. All through the three movies her character doesn't have any arch, any development because she is perfect from the get go. Without any serious Jedi training (Lea is no Jedi, so she can't seriously train Rey, I am sorry) she is capable of things not even the most powerful Jedi, like Yoda were capable of (healing deadly injuries, tearing down full ass spaceships from the sky, teleporting objects etc.). Maybe she got it from her granddaddy, after all granddaddy is able to resurrect himself from the ashes of the blown up Death Start. So the moral of the story is: the Dark Side IS more powerful than the Light Side? Because sure as hell it seems to give Palpatine god-like abilities. He can just come back from death any time now. If he didn't die when the Death Star blew up with him, how can we be sure he is dead this time? Oh, because now it is Rey who killed him and Rey is perfect!
Then you have Finn and Poe, who do absolutely nothing in the movie. I remember when TFA came out and Finn was in the trailer. And you had this storm trooper taking down his helmet for the first time in SW movies and seemed like we will have an interesting character in Finn. People even speculated if he is going to become a Jedi. In any case, there was potential (and no, he did not have to become a Jedi for that), but then he made him a dull character who you didn't know what he was doing in the movie other than constantly worrying for Rey and having a crush on her. Same for Poe. They were trying to make him this new Han Solo-type character but he falls flat.
In the OT Luke isn't all powerful. There are things Han does better, there are things Lea does better or Lando. They all rely on each other, it is a team where they complement each other and each other's skills. And all of them are needed to defeat the Empire. But the ST is a one-woman show. Rey is just so perfect that Finn and Poe have not really a lot to do. Mary Sue does everything, Mary Sue achieves everything single-handedly. Even when they kidnap Chewie, it is Rey who saves the day. All Finn can do is to cry out to Almighty Rey for help.
Then you have Kylo. Initially he looked like an exciting character to me. I wasn't even that annoyed by his emo act (like many SW fans seemed to be), I expected eventually we will have an explanation for everything. The explanation we got in TLJ was that Luke contemplated killing him. But that makes you turn on your whole family? And it makes you kill your father? Not to mention, this explanation again devalues the character of Luke.
I liked the vibe and chemistry between Kylo and Rey (the kiss was probably unnecessary, though) but so much more interesting story could have been made of this.
Thing with the OT and even PT is that you care for the characters. Each and every one of them has its function. If you ask who is my fave character from the OT I would have trouble because I like each one of them for different reasons. Luke, Han, Leia. I like Darth Vader and Palpatine too, as the most badass villains.
In the new one I like no one. Finn and Poe are too weightless for me to care and Rey is too perfect for me to care. People don't care for a Mary Sue. You need to have some Greek tragedy, a fallible hero with flaws thing going on for people to be able to identify with a hero and care. Palpatine is as badass as always, but he shouldn't be in this film. As much as I like this character he just doesn't belong here for reasons stated above. Couldn't they come up with a new villain? Is that how uncreative Disney is? Snoke shouldn't have died in Ep 8. He should have grown more manecing and more powerful by Ep 9. It was stupid to kill the main villain in Ep 2 of the trilogy. He shouldn't have been a clone of Palp, but a fully independent individual who is trying to learn the Sith way from secret, ancient Sith literature, and by Ep 9 becomes a full blown, brand new Sith master.
This trilogy is absolutely disrespectful to the SW legacy, the Skywalkers, George Lucas and everything. It's trying to be SW, like Xscape is trying to be Michael Jackson, but it isn't really. There is no magic and no SW quality. To me SW is 1-6 episodes, I am going ignore this story.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 8:43:19 GMT
Not a big fan of the Jackson boys podcast TBH. Only made it through a bit of a couple of them. Calling this the worst Star Wars I strongly disagree with. That's reserved for Attack of the Clones, I don't care what anyone says.
My 2 biggest gripes with this trilogy stem from TLJ, which are Luke deciding to try to kill Ben after a vision of 1 possible future, and Luke not leaving Ahch-To Island.
I plan on seeing TROS again to see of my opinion changes, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it, but ranks somewhere in the middle for me.
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Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 9:27:40 GMT
Then you have Kylo. Initially he looked like an exciting character to me. I wasn't even that annoyed by his emo act (like many SW fans seemed to be), I expected eventually we will have an explanation for everything. The explanation we got in TLJ was that Luke contemplated killing him. But that makes you turn on your whole family? And it makes you kill your father? Not to mention, this explanation again devalues the character of Luke.
I liked the vibe and chemistry between Kylo and Rey (the kiss was probably unnecessary, though) but so much more interesting story could have been made of this. I mean, it's not JUST the fact Luke contemplated killing him - that was the tip of the iceberg that finally set off a chain reaction. The fact that Luke had sensed an extreme amount of darkness inside of him prior to that shows there had been a lot more going on inside him for some time. Indeed Snoke had reached out and had been targeting Kylo for some time, becoming a corrupting influence in his head. Remember now just in Episode 9 Palpatine reveals to Kylo he's been every single voice inside of his head - be it Palps, Snoke or Vader, but also how in Episode 7 Leia briefly discusses with Han how Snoke seduced him to the dark side? To me it all seems like it had been stewing for a while, and that Luke's mistake was the final thing that triggered him to fall to the dark side. Furthermore, in the EU, it's established that Kylo harboured strong feelings of abandonment towards his parents, given they both continued having pretty active careers as he was growing up, often neglecting their child. IIRC, Snoke used to this to his advantage and became a sort of father figure for Kylo during his seductions. Of course, aside from the fact Leia and Han are now divorced, this isn't really explained in the films and in fact the other day, I saw a discussion on Twitter about important character information placement in films vs. the optional, expanded universe source material. One thing the sequel trilogy suffers from is relying on this additional material to flesh out vital parts of the characters, all this additional information can be great to help fill out the character and specific details of their backstory, but if it's truly essential to the characters journey it should be in the films at one point or another.
But yes, keep in mind that Luke's mistake is not the only reason for Kylo's downfall. I really loved the vibe and chemistry between Kylo/Rey too - infact I was hoping instead of the 'big baddie' final act happening, we had a film where it focused more on their relationship. Sure have the ultimate showdown between the Resistance and First Order, but let the main villain be Kylo, and have the focus on their relationship. Not randomly setting up some "Palpatine" connection that's barely alluded to. Not a big fan of the Jackson boys podcast TBH. Only made it through a bit of a couple of them. Calling this the worst Star Wars I strongly disagree with. That's reserved for Attack of the Clones, I don't care what anyone says. Yep. Have to agree.
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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 9:38:34 GMT
Then you have Kylo. Initially he looked like an exciting character to me. I wasn't even that annoyed by his emo act (like many SW fans seemed to be), I expected eventually we will have an explanation for everything. The explanation we got in TLJ was that Luke contemplated killing him. But that makes you turn on your whole family? And it makes you kill your father? Not to mention, this explanation again devalues the character of Luke.
I liked the vibe and chemistry between Kylo and Rey (the kiss was probably unnecessary, though) but so much more interesting story could have been made of this. I mean, it's not JUST the fact Luke contemplated killing him - that was the tip of the iceberg that finally set off a chain reaction. The fact that Luke had sensed an extreme amount of darkness inside of him prior to that shows there had been a lot more going on inside him for some time. Indeed Snoke had reached out and had been targeting Kylo for some time, becoming a corrupting influence in his head. Remember now just in Episode 9 Palpatine reveals to Kylo he's been every single voice inside of his head - be it Palps, Snoke or Vader, but also how in Episode 7 Leia briefly discusses with Han how Snoke seduced him to the dark side? To me it all seems like it had been stewing for a while, and that Luke's mistake was the final thing that triggered him to fall to the dark side. Furthermore, in the EU, it's established that Kylo harboured strong feelings of abandonment towards his parents, given they both continued having pretty active careers as he was growing up, often neglecting their child. IIRC, Snoke used to this to his advantage and became a sort of father figure for Kylo during his seductions. Of course, aside from the fact Leia and Han are now divorced, this isn't really explained in the films and in fact the other day, I saw a discussion on Twitter about important character information placement in films vs. the optional, expanded universe source material. One thing the sequel trilogy suffers from is relying on this additional material to flesh out vital parts of the characters, all this additional information can be great to help fill out the character and specific details of their backstory, but if it's truly essential to the characters journey it should be in the films at one point or another.
But yes, keep in mind that Luke's mistake is not the only reason for Kylo's downfall. I really loved the vibe and chemistry between Kylo/Rey too - infact I was hoping instead of the 'big baddie' final act happening, we had a film where it focused more on their relationship. Sure have the ultimate showdown between the Resistance and First Order, but let the main villain be Kylo, and have the focus on their relationship. Not randomly setting up some "Palpatine" connection that's barely alluded to.
To me that he was being tempted by the Dark Side before Luke tried to kill him does need explanation. That it is explained in the EU, doesn't redeem the film. Most people don't follow the EU (and they don't have to). The films need to be good, consistent stories in themselves.
As for Attack of the Clones being the worst, I don't really agree. At least that trilogy is consistent with itself and with the OT. When a film isn't consistent with its predecessor (in fact, seems to fully go against it) PLUS it is not consistent with the whole saga, either, then that is a HUGE problem IMO. Bigger than whatever flaws AOTC had.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 9:39:53 GMT
Then you have Kylo. Initially he looked like an exciting character to me. I wasn't even that annoyed by his emo act (like many SW fans seemed to be), I expected eventually we will have an explanation for everything. The explanation we got in TLJ was that Luke contemplated killing him. But that makes you turn on your whole family? And it makes you kill your father? Not to mention, this explanation again devalues the character of Luke.
I liked the vibe and chemistry between Kylo and Rey (the kiss was probably unnecessary, though) but so much more interesting story could have been made of this. Not a big fan of the Jackson boys podcast TBH. Only made it through a bit of a couple of them. Calling this the worst Star Wars I strongly disagree with. That's reserved for Attack of the Clones, I don't care what anyone says. Yep. Have to agree. Good points. But for Luke to just go to KILL Ben! It's such an odd odd moment. He was always a source of hope to everyone around him, and then he just goes to kill his nephew! This is the same guy who saw the good in Darth Vader- a mass murderer! How do you go from "we can save Anakin Skywalker from the Dark Side even after all hes done" to "Jesus this kid hasn't done anything yet, off with his head!". If Ben had already been on a path to the dark side, this should have been addressed on screen, that's what I think. Luke Skywalker about to kill the only child of Leia Organa and Han Solo in an unprovoked attack. It gets weirder and worse each time I see it! Admittedly, TROS has helped me to like TLJ a bit more, same way ROTS made me like AOTC a bit more after re-calculating. "Ive seen this power once before, it didnt scare me then, it scares me now" Hes referring to Ben here am I right? So he wasnt scared when he went to murder him? Luke Skywalker, you stand here accused of first degree murder of your nephew. How do you plead? It reminds me of Ozymandias in Watchmen. Forge an horrific event that sacrifices millions to finally achieve world peace by bringing opposing countries together. Good intention. Still a prick for killing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 9:41:14 GMT
I mean, it's not JUST the fact Luke contemplated killing him - that was the tip of the iceberg that finally set off a chain reaction. The fact that Luke had sensed an extreme amount of darkness inside of him prior to that shows there had been a lot more going on inside him for some time. Indeed Snoke had reached out and had been targeting Kylo for some time, becoming a corrupting influence in his head. Remember now just in Episode 9 Palpatine reveals to Kylo he's been every single voice inside of his head - be it Palps, Snoke or Vader, but also how in Episode 7 Leia briefly discusses with Han how Snoke seduced him to the dark side? To me it all seems like it had been stewing for a while, and that Luke's mistake was the final thing that triggered him to fall to the dark side. Furthermore, in the EU, it's established that Kylo harboured strong feelings of abandonment towards his parents, given they both continued having pretty active careers as he was growing up, often neglecting their child. IIRC, Snoke used to this to his advantage and became a sort of father figure for Kylo during his seductions. Of course, aside from the fact Leia and Han are now divorced, this isn't really explained in the films and in fact the other day, I saw a discussion on Twitter about important character information placement in films vs. the optional, expanded universe source material. One thing the sequel trilogy suffers from is relying on this additional material to flesh out vital parts of the characters, all this additional information can be great to help fill out the character and specific details of their backstory, but if it's truly essential to the characters journey it should be in the films at one point or another.
But yes, keep in mind that Luke's mistake is not the only reason for Kylo's downfall. I really loved the vibe and chemistry between Kylo/Rey too - infact I was hoping instead of the 'big baddie' final act happening, we had a film where it focused more on their relationship. Sure have the ultimate showdown between the Resistance and First Order, but let the main villain be Kylo, and have the focus on their relationship. Not randomly setting up some "Palpatine" connection that's barely alluded to.
To me that he was being tempted by the Dark Side before Luke tried to kill him does need explanation. That it is explained in the EU, doesn't redeem the film. Most people don't follow the EU (and they don't have to). The films need to be good, consistent stories in themselves.
100%! We can't assume "oh something must have happened there". The original trilogy didn't require homework!
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Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 9:50:53 GMT
To me that he was being tempted by the Dark Side before Luke tried to kill him does need explanation. That it is explained in the EU, doesn't redeem the film. Most people don't follow the EU (and they don't have to). The films need to be good, consistent stories in themselves. Funnily enough, I'm typing up another post to reply to something else, BUT in rewatching a scene from The Last Jedi it is actually mentioned. When Luke is giving the final, true account of what happened the night he attempted to kill Ben - he does discuss how he had sensed darkness and anger building within Ben for some time, that Snoke had already turned his heart. So I mean, it IS there. I do agree in general that explaining in the EU can't redeem the film if it is vital though. As for Attack of the Clones being the worst, I don't really agree. At least that trilogy is consistent with itself and with the OT. When a film isn't consistent with its predecessor (in fact, seems to fully go against it) PLUS it is not consistent with the whole saga, either, then that is a HUGE problem IMO. Bigger than whatever flaws AOTC had. Well that's the thing the prequels have over the sequels - they're much more consistent in their vision. But when it comes to other aspects of filmmaking, as have been discussed over and over, it is a pretty flawed film. I have big issues with the consistency of TROS, but it's a more enjoyable film for me to watch than AOTC, so I like it more.
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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 9:53:21 GMT
Good points. But for Luke to just go to KILL Ben! It's such an odd odd moment. He was always a source of hope to everyone around him, and then he just goes to kill his nephew! This is the same guy who saw the good in Darth Vader- a mass murderer! How do you go from "we can save Anakin Skywalker from the Dark Side even after all hes done" to "Jesus this kid hasn't done anything yet, off with his head!". If Ben had already been on a path to the dark side, this should have been addressed on screen, that's what I think. Luke Skywalker about to kill the only child of Leia Organa and Han Solo in an unprovoked attack. It gets weirder and worse each time I see it! Admittedly, TROS has helped me to like TLJ a bit more, same way ROTS made me like AOTC a bit more after re-calculating. "Ive seen this power once before, it didnt scare me then, it scares me now" Hes referring to Ben here am I right? So he wasnt scared when he went to murder him? Luke Skywalker, you stand here accused of first degree murder of your nephew. How do you plead? It reminds me of Ozymandias in Watchmen. Forge an horrific event that sacrifices millions to finally achieve world peace by bringing opposing countries together. Good intention. Still a prick for killing.
Yeah, it is horrible when you think of it. It actually makes Luke himself wander off to the Dark Side, so how can he still be this inspiration for Rey? I get it that heroes are flawed, I actually just demanded that from Rey's character, but this is worse than flawed. It is nothing better than those murderers who kill their children because they hear a voice in their head that God is telling them to kill them. We lock those people up in mental asylums or put them on death row for child murder.
And what is the theme of SW then? Is it a fate that we all have that is predetermined and we can't escape or do we have a choice to do good or bad, after all? Because if it is the latter then why didn't Luke let Ben make his choice before he tried to kill him? Just because he is tempted it doesn't mean he would really end up evil. He could have fought it off and come out stronger on the light side, just like Luke did, just like Rey did. He didn't even allow him to make his choice. He just decide he is fated to become evil and that needs to be stopped. A horrible plot for Luke IMO.
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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 9:55:43 GMT
To me that he was being tempted by the Dark Side before Luke tried to kill him does need explanation. That it is explained in the EU, doesn't redeem the film. Most people don't follow the EU (and they don't have to). The films need to be good, consistent stories in themselves. Funnily enough, I'm typing up another post to reply to something else, BUT in rewatching a scene from The Last Jedi it is actually mentioned. When Luke is giving the final, true account of what happened the night he attempted to kill Ben - he does discuss how he had sensed darkness and anger building within Ben for some time, that Snoke had already turned his heart. So I mean, it IS there. I do agree in general that explaining in the EU can't redeem the film if it is vital though.
Anger building up in him is not a good reason for him to try to kill him. What I mean is not explained, is his relationship with his parents that you say is explained in the EU, as a reason for that anger. There are hints of it, but just hints which are not very clear.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 9:55:50 GMT
Good points. But for Luke to just go to KILL Ben! It's such an odd odd moment. He was always a source of hope to everyone around him, and then he just goes to kill his nephew! This is the same guy who saw the good in Darth Vader- a mass murderer! How do you go from "we can save Anakin Skywalker from the Dark Side even after all hes done" to "Jesus this kid hasn't done anything yet, off with his head!". If Ben had already been on a path to the dark side, this should have been addressed on screen, that's what I think. Luke Skywalker about to kill the only child of Leia Organa and Han Solo in an unprovoked attack. It gets weirder and worse each time I see it! Admittedly, TROS has helped me to like TLJ a bit more, same way ROTS made me like AOTC a bit more after re-calculating. "Ive seen this power once before, it didnt scare me then, it scares me now" Hes referring to Ben here am I right? So he wasnt scared when he went to murder him? Luke Skywalker, you stand here accused of first degree murder of your nephew. How do you plead? It reminds me of Ozymandias in Watchmen. Forge an horrific event that sacrifices millions to finally achieve world peace by bringing opposing countries together. Good intention. Still a prick for killing.
Yeah, it is horrible when you think of it. It actually makes Luke himself wander off to the Dark Side, so how can he still be this inspiration for Rey? I get it that heroes are flawed, I actually just demanded that from Rey's character, but this is worse than flawed. It is nothing better than those murderers who kill their children because they hear a voice in their head that God is telling them to kill them. We lock those people up in mental asylums or put them on death row for child murder.
And what is the theme of SW then? Is it a fate that we all have that is predetermined and we can't escape or do we have a choice to do good or bad, after all? Because if it is the latter then why didn't Luke let Ben make his choice before he tried to kill him? Just because he is tempted it doesn't mean he would really end up evil. He could have fought it off and come out stronger on the light side, just like Luke did, just like Rey did. He didn't even allow him to make his choice. He just decide he is fated to become evil and that needs to be stopped. A horrible plot for Luke IMO.
Well, the lesson I learned from Luke is... Do everything online. You don't need to leave the house to do anything π
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 9:56:31 GMT
Funnily enough, I'm typing up another post to reply to something else, BUT in rewatching a scene from The Last Jedi it is actually mentioned. When Luke is giving the final, true account of what happened the night he attempted to kill Ben - he does discuss how he had sensed darkness and anger building within Ben for some time, that Snoke had already turned his heart. So I mean, it IS there. I do agree in general that explaining in the EU can't redeem the film if it is vital though.
Anger building up in him is not a good reason for him to try to kill him. What I mean is not explained, is his relationship with his parents that you say is explained in the EU, as a reason for that anger. There are hints of it, but just hints which are not very clear.
Also, how did Wace, Yoda and Obi Wan not see this in Anakin!?
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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 10:13:20 GMT
No matter how you look at it this trilogy screwed up the Skywalkers real bad (the title "The Rise of Skywalker" must have been given tongue in cheek). Basically it cancelled (LOL) their whole legacy:
- Luke is a manic attempted murderer of his own nephew. - Anakin did not bring balance to shit. Palpatine is still alive. - The only Skywalker offspring is dead. - Palpatine won all across the board. That's it. That's the conclusion of the supposed "Skywalker saga". He can beat death! So don't be so sure he is really dead this time. If he survived the explosion of the Death Star, he can survive anything. His offspring is the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived, apparently. Without any real training, and all. Granddaddy must be proud. She may get bored one day of being good and turn to the Dark Side. Don't rule that out, if Luke could go to the Dark Side and try to kill his nephew AFTER everything he has done for the Light Side. So it turns out SW was about the Palpatines, after all, not the Skywalkers. They are both the real villains and the heroes of this saga. Definitely they are the most powerful ones - whichever side they take.
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Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 10:49:47 GMT
Not to mention, this explanation again devalues the character of Luke. I've never considered it as devaluing the character of Luke. Despite the image people had conjured in their heads of Luke being this perfect, flawless Jedi Master, he's never actually shown as such. Maybe he was between the films, but like people, we change. Throughout the last film we saw him in, Return of the Jedi, we see him toy with both the light and the dark side. This is shown both in his actions - e.g. we see him force choking the gamorrean guards in Jabba's Palace or sudden bursts of rage - as well as his costume design which was rather dark in that film. In that, we see that Luke has never adhered strictly to the light side of the force - he has toyed with the dark before. Right at the end of the film, we see him almost kill his own father in a sudden, triggered fit of rage. Why? Because Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark side. In the episode prior, against the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke drops his Jedi training completely and almost dies while attempting to save his friends from what he sees as torture and certain death. Clearly we see that the most important thing to Luke Skywalker is the people he holds dear to him, but - just like every other human ever - he is still susceptible to making brief judgements of error. Literally the only thing that stopped Luke from killing his father at the end, was seeing how his father was just like him (comparing the hand, seeing through this he was ending up more and more like his father), but also hearing the Emperor suddenly cackling behind him.
Now jump forward to the flashback events shown in The Last Jedi. Why Luke made the sudden misjudgement in error makes a lot of sense when you actually listen to what Luke tells Rey (the last time, when he tells the genuine truth of what happened). You have an apprentice who is filled with anger and rage, that you can actively sense during his training overtime. You use the force to see what is going on his mind, out of concern for his well being... and all you see is beyond what you could ever imagine - screaming, pain, people dying, planets blowing up - Luke specifically says this boy would bring the end of everything he ever loved (aka his friends and family!!) through what he would become. That Snoke had fully turned his heart already, there was no going back and everything that you worked so hard to destroy is coming back, all through this one child.
But he could stop it. Right then and there. With just a single hit of his switch - he could put a stop to all that pain and destruction before it happens, all that he has worked towards would remaining standing, all the evil would be gone and all his friends and family could have their lives spared. It literally reminds me of that question people debate about, would you kill Adolf Hitler as an innocent child if you knew what he later committed as an adult?
And upon ignition Luke immediately regretted it; instantly filled with utter shame as he realized what he even contemplated doing. If he could help turn Vader back, surely he could try and help Ben regardless? I figure he was going to try that... but it was too late. He looks down to see a frightened Ben Solo had already awoken. It is literally human to make spur-of-the-moment mistakes, and it is not against his character because it falls directly in line with how he is towards the end of Star Wars 6 (and if anything, character development is still shown because he got a grip on it much faster than he did in Episode 6). As for rushing to the idea to kill this innocent child, I can see why people turn their head at this because they're right, it is extreme. But remember that this was no ordinary situation - Luke had said Snoke had successfully turned Ben's heart by this point (to me that implies he saw no good in Ben). We see this idea is not something Luke takes lightly given his reaction immediately upon coming back to his senses. Evidently what he saw in the vision was extremely serious enough to make him briefly contemplate all of this. 1 life to spare hundreds, thousands, millions?
Foretelling through the force has always played a big role in the Skywalker Saga. Anakin foretells his mother dying, he foretells Padme dying too and goes down the path of the dark side in an attempt to save her - ending up being the reason for her death. Luke himself sees visions of his friends suffering in the future. And now he foretells that all happening again - and similar to what happened with Anakin and Padme - he was not actually wrong. It WAS the downfall of Ben Solo that would lead to the destruction of the rebuilt Jedi, it WAS what Ben Solo would become that would end up killing Han Solo, it WAS what Ben Solo would become that would end up killing his sister. What Luke foretold was not wrong, but like Yoda says, always in motion the future is. Just like with Anakin and Padme, those moments he foresaw happened because of his attempted intervening - when he ignited his lightsaber.
His self-exile makes sense too. He had failed to bring back the Jedi, caused their destruction yet again and saw himself as the reason that all this pain, destruction and darkness had made it's way back into the galaxy again. Clearly full of shame, regret and pain knowing what he had now caused, he then self-exiled himself and abandoned teaching any more Jedi in fear of fucking anything else up and causing further pain to the galaxy. He was no longer confident in his beliefs and abilities, and shaken to the core - as it would do for any human.
Throughout the events of The Last Jedi, Rey then shows Luke that he can STILL inspire hope in people, and that she's not the only one. Yoda does as well, telling him that failure is the greatest teacher, and that he can learn from all his mistakes he made and still continue to do good. Through that, he learns to embody what the great Jedi grandmaster Luke Skywalker should be - what the galaxy thinks of him. He was a warrior who stood tall and brave in front of his enemies, never afraid to confront them. He accomplishes this at the end of the film, all without harming another person or even turning on another lightsaber. No, it is entirely through the force at a level essentially never seen before. There he completes the legend of Luke Skywalker, confronting the First Order head on and instilling hope throughout the entire galaxy once again (remember how the film finishes with the children retelling what we just saw?).
And writing this up again makes me really appreciate the messages Rian Johnson was communicating in The Last Jedi. That you don't have to let your mistakes define who you are, that failure is the greatest teacher. That even the greatest of masters have failures, and that it's not neccesserily the failures that define us but how we respond to them (Makes sense - the whole film shows almost every character experiencing failure after failure). Or how you don't need to be of a certain blood to make a difference in the world - anyone is capable of having an impact (that is, until JJ Abrams came along and essentially did away with that...).
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Post by respect77 on Dec 26, 2019 10:57:03 GMT
To me it all feels like excuses for what is really a bad plot, to be honest. I mean I guess in fiction you can always create explanations for yourself that satisfy you, but to me this trilogy and how it treats the original characters and how it relates to the original story is a mess. Yes, Luke had hot-headed moments in the OT, but one would think by the time he is an old master he had learnt something - and definitely learnt to control his impulses. Isn't that a big part of being a Jedi? Learning to self-control?
And you don't have to be perfect to not want to kill your nephew whose only sin is that he has bad thoughts. There is a whole world between being perfect and THAT.
Anyway, the point I was making was that the ST is a big middle finger to the whole Skywalker clan and their legacy. "The Rise of Skywalker" really should have been named "The Destruction of Skywalker".
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Post by HIStoric on Dec 26, 2019 10:59:12 GMT
Anger building up in him is not a good reason for him to try to kill him. What I mean is not explained, is his relationship with his parents that you say is explained in the EU, as a reason for that anger. There are hints of it, but just hints which are not very clear.
Also, how did Wace, Yoda and Obi Wan not see this in Anakin!? That's the thing - the Jedi were full of themselves, hypocritical, stuck to their old ways and much more blind than they realized.
A lot of Anakin's anger and frustration came from a lack of recognition and appreciation (Mace Windu was very strict in that sense). Think about how in Revenge of the Sith he is insulted that he is put on the council, yet not given the rank of Master, or how Mace Windu still did not trust him after everything he had accomplished. This leads to Anakin arriving late to Palpatine's confrontation, where he saw Mace Windu on the verge of execution the Chancellor. If Anakin had been there from the start as he wanted to be , things would have turned out very differently - he wouldn't have seen a Chancellor begging for his life, not having seen his carnage and power beforehand. Yet that was the pinnacle moment that led to the downfall of Anakin Skywalker, and rise of Darth Vader.
I think the Jedi also placed a lot of blind trust in the prophecy, so they assumed that even if Anakin showed dark side potential, he would've ultimately fulfilled the prophecy in the end. I also presume that because Anakin was brought into the Jedi Order at a muuuuch later time in life than the others, they expected him to have more moodswings but because they never really deal with that from normal Jedi, they clearly weren't adequate enough to deal with it and instead treated him like anyone else.
Quite a fascinating topic actually!
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