|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 27, 2020 14:05:34 GMT
What if they aren't his biological children and he didn't tell them? Prince was 12, Paris 11 when he died. Many parents who adopt don't tell until the child is an adult. You can argue about whether that's right or wrong, but surely MJ wouldn't be the only one with thay choice. That issue is further complicated though when the parent tells the child they are a different race from the one they actually are, so I feel Russ is asking a valid moral question here tbh. Yeah, it's hard to discuss this stuff without certain fans calling you a hater if you don't toe the official party line. I think it was a taboo subject in the fanbase for quite some time, due to them being kids, but seeing as they're all over 18 now (right?!), I see no reason why this subject can't be discussed in an adult manner. I don't believe PPB are biologically related to Michael, and that is in no way influenced by hater rhetorics or the media. Almost every member of the Jackson family looks like a Jackson in some way or other. They are a very distinctive looking family, and even third generation Jacksons closely resemble their aunties, uncles and even Joe and Katherine. MJ's kids do not look like Jacksons, nor do they appear to be black. It's called having eyes. Sorry (actually not) if that offends some fans, but it's kind of obvious to me. Of course, they are Jacksons in every way that is meaningful, they were raised in that family and brought into the world by a Jackson, but biologically, it doesn't ring true to me. Yeah that's how I feel. And again, being the biological parent is of very little importance compared to being a loving & visible parent but my 'concern'* would be form the kid's emotional state as people deserve to know where they came from. I mean, were they told they were his biological kids but also doubt it or do they know a different truth from us. I've put concern in inverted commas as in the grand scheme of things, I'm no more concerned about PPB that any other kids, I'm a fan of their Dad not the whole family. But obviously I wish them well and all that. Something else I'd add which is why I don't like to think of this too much is why Paris & Prince are white and when younger why Prince (I think) has dyed blonde hair. I know MJ was a proud black man but you can't deny that this does add credence to those that think otherwise. I'm reminded of the last few lines in Black or White, I know the lyric in the Dangerous booklet is 'It's tough for you to get by' but he actually sings 'it's touch for you to be black' (something that's clearer on the DWT Rehearsal) and I wonder if he thought it would be easier for them. I don't know. And like MattyJam said voicing stuff like this, I know will piss some people off, so I'm sort of sorry (I think) for that. But I think it's an interesting sociological discussion and talking about it doesn't make you less of a fan or (when discussed properly) is disrespectful. I never twigged that was what he was saying at the end of BorW. I will have to listen to it again now. I always thought it didn't sound like "it's tough for you to get by" though. Prince having dyed blonde hair was only for a brief period during his upbringing if I recall. He had his natural colour for the majority of his 12 years with MJ and whilst it inevitably creates great fodder for the haters who want to push the MJ wanted to be white narrative, I feel the true explanation is probably much simpler and more innocent than many like to believe. We know MJ went to great lenghts to give the children anonymity when they weren't with him, so perhaps the dyed blonde hair was MJ's misguided attempt to throw paparazzi off the scent, so Prince would be able to walk around with bodyguards or his nanny in peace? That's why they wore the masks, right? So they wouldn't be recognised when they were out in public without MJ. Or perhaps he just thought the blonde hair looked cute? I know that may be seen as a controversial thing for a parent to do, but what aspect of MJ's personal life wasn't controversial to some degree? LOL. He just thought very differently to a lot of people. Not a crime. I personally wouldn't change my kids hair colour at that age, but if it was simply because MJ thought it looked cute, then whatever, there's bigger things in life to worry about than a parent who wants to change their kids natural hair colour.
|
|
|
Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 27, 2020 14:10:18 GMT
Yes the jackson have a distintive look but not all of them have it. Jermaines kids amongst others with maldonado (i think) look nothing like jacksons. Some of randys kids. Jackies kids dont stand out to me as jacksons. Tarryl and some of jerms are the obvious standouts.blanket was a mini mj when he was younger. Not much now though.mjs kids are mixed race.but then obmama gets called americas first black president. Comes from the jim crow days where if you had any black in you you were classed as black. So the kids got "lucky" in not having brown skin.and therefore society deems them as white
Only joes brother had kids with a fair white woman and as i said above he certainly doesnt look like a jackson. Judging ppls genetics based on what they look like isnt the art of science.if mjs kids looked black there wouldnt be a discussion on it. and it does annoy me why it was brought up back in he day. It was created by the media and their hatred for mj and the agenda they like to push.so it does frustrate me that some fans question it based off their looks or is their a logical non media racist reason as to why mj wouldnt have his own?
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 27, 2020 14:19:03 GMT
Yes the jackson have a distintive look but not all of them have it. Jermaines kids amongst others with maldonado (i think) look nothing like jacksons. Some of randys kids. Jackies kids dont stand out to me as jacksons. Tarryl and some of jerms are the obvious standouts.blanket was a mini mj when he was younger. Not much now though. Only joes brother had kids with a fair white woman and as i said above he certainly doesnt look like a jackson. Judging ppls genetics based on what they look like isnt the art of science.if mjs kids looked black there wouldnt be a discussion on it. and it does annoy me why it was brought up back in he day. It was created by the media and their hatred for mj and the agenda they like to push.so it does frustrate me that some fans question it based off their looks or is their a logical non media racist reason as to why mj wouldnt have his own? Why does it have to be about race? Isn't there a possibility MJ couldn't conceive naturally? Even if it was a concerted choice to not have his own bio kids, it still doesn't necessarily need to be because of race. We know he was unhappy being reminded of Joe when he looked in the mirror (didn't MJ say that himself once?), so perhaps he didn't want to be reminded of his father when he looked at his kids. For what it's worth, I 100% believe MJ when he told Bashir that that colour of Bigi's mothers skin didn't matter to him. The fact that a black man can't adopt or have a surrogate child with a white person without being accused of self-hatred speaks more about society's prejudices than it does anything else. Would anyone say a white man having a black child was self-hatred?
|
|
|
Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 27, 2020 14:24:44 GMT
Yeah thats what im asking matty. But the theory/seed comes from the tabloids back in the day and we know their motivation interms of mj hating his own race and wanting to be white.But the conversations stems from the way they look which is in itself a weak and dangerous sentiment.
If prince could moonwalk and sang like mj would ppl questions itππ
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 27, 2020 14:25:24 GMT
What if they aren't his biological children and he didn't tell them? Prince was 12, Paris 11 when he died. Many parents who adopt don't tell until the child is an adult. You can argue about whether that's right or wrong, but surely MJ wouldn't be the only one with thay choice. That issue is further complicated though when the parent tells the child they are a different race from the one they actually are, so I feel Russ is asking a valid moral question here tbh. Yeah that's how I feel. And again, being the biological parent is of very little importance compared to being a loving & visible parent but my 'concern'* would be form the kid's emotional state as people deserve to know where they came from. I mean, were they told they were his biological kids but also doubt it or do they know a different truth from us. I've put concern in inverted commas as in the grand scheme of things, I'm no more concerned about PPB that any other kids, I'm a fan of their Dad not the whole family. But obviously I wish them well and all that. Something else I'd add which is why I don't like to think of this too much is why Paris & Prince are white and when younger why Prince (I think) has dyed blonde hair. I know MJ was a proud black man but you can't deny that this does add credence to those that think otherwise. I'm reminded of the last few lines in Black or White, I know the lyric in the Dangerous booklet is 'It's tough for you to get by' but he actually sings 'it's touch for you to be black' (something that's clearer on the DWT Rehearsal) and I wonder if he thought it would be easier for them. I don't know. And like MattyJam said voicing stuff like this, I know will piss some people off, so I'm sort of sorry (I think) for that. But I think it's an interesting sociological discussion and talking about it doesn't make you less of a fan or (when discussed properly) is disrespectful. I never twigged that was what he was saying at the end of BorW. I will have to listen to it again now. I always thought it didn't sound like "it's tough for you to get by" though. Prince having dyed blonde hair was only for a brief period during his upbringing if I recall. He had his natural colour for the majority of his 12 years with MJ and whilst it inevitably creates great fodder for the haters who want to push the MJ wanted to be white narrative, I feel the true explanation is probably much simpler and more innocent than many like to believe. We know MJ went to great lenghts to give the children anonymity when they weren't with him, so perhaps the dyed blonde hair was MJ's misguided attempt to throw paparazzi off the scent, so Prince would be able to walk around with bodyguards or his nanny in peace? That's why they wore the masks, right? So they wouldn't be recognised when they were out in public without MJ. Or perhaps he just thought the blonde hair looked cute? I know that may be seen as a controversial thing for a parent to do, but what aspect of MJ's personal life wasn't controversial to some degree? LOL. He just thought very differently to a lot of people. Not a crime. I personally wouldn't change my kids hair colour at that age, but if it was simply because MJ thought it looked cute, then whatever, there's bigger things in life to worry about than a parent who wants to change their kids natural hair colour. We don't know what MJ actually told his kids. And if he believed what he sang about maybe he really didn't think it mattered or it should matter if you are black or white. I know now everything is about race and it seems to be of utter importance for people but I don't think MJ agreed with that mindset. He believed in a world where it truly didn't matter if you were black or white.
|
|
|
Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 27, 2020 14:27:04 GMT
Anyway i thought randy had DNA tests done!π
|
|
|
Post by SoCav on Jul 27, 2020 14:27:55 GMT
I'm reminded of the last few lines in Black or White, I know the lyric in the Dangerous booklet is 'It's tough for you to get by' but he actually sings 'it's touch for you to be black' (something that's clearer on the DWT Rehearsal) and I wonder if he thought it would be easier for them. I don't know. I never twigged that was what he was saying at the end of BorW. I will have to listen to it again now. I always thought it didn't sound like "it's tough for you to get by" though. Sidenote but I am pretty certain he sings it as "it's tough for you to beat that" in both the studio vocal and rehearsal.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 27, 2020 14:30:55 GMT
Yes the jackson have a distintive look but not all of them have it. Jermaines kids amongst others with maldonado (i think) look nothing like jacksons. Some of randys kids. Jackies kids dont stand out to me as jacksons. Tarryl and some of jerms are the obvious standouts.blanket was a mini mj when he was younger. Not much now though. Only joes brother had kids with a fair white woman and as i said above he certainly doesnt look like a jackson. Judging ppls genetics based on what they look like isnt the art of science.if mjs kids looked black there wouldnt be a discussion on it. and it does annoy me why it was brought up back in he day. It was created by the media and their hatred for mj and the agenda they like to push.so it does frustrate me that some fans question it based off their looks or is their a logical non media racist reason as to why mj wouldnt have his own? Why does it have to be about race? Isn't there a possibility MJ couldn't conceive naturally? Even if it was a concerted choice to not have his own bio kids, it still doesn't necessarily need to be because of race. We know he was unhappy being reminded of Joe when he looked in the mirror (didn't MJ say that himself once?), so perhaps he didn't want to be reminded of his father when he looked at his kids. For what it's worth, I 100% believe MJ when he told Bashir that that colour of Bigi's mothers skin didn't matter to him. The fact that a black man can't adopt or have a surrogate child with a white person without being accused of self-hatred speaks more about society's prejudices than it does anything else. Would anyone say a white man having a black child was self-hatred? Madonna is never accused of self-hate for adopting black children. Though, she's accused of fetishizing black people, therefore being racist (I have seen that). So I guess it's like with interracial marriage, you can't win with interracial adoption either in the eyes of those heavily into woke identity politics.
|
|
|
Post by Vega on Jul 27, 2020 14:31:56 GMT
I think Prince summed it up pretty well in this tweet. Obviously Paris feels differently and has said she is black, which is of course silly, but at the end of the day, who does it effect other than themselves?
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 27, 2020 14:34:43 GMT
I think Prince summed it up pretty well in this tweet. Obviously Paris feels differently and has said she is black, which is of course silly, but at the end of the day, who does it effect other than themselves?Β Exactly. Who are fans to tell them they should be bothered by this if they aren't? Or why should fans be bothered/concerned on their behalf if they aren't? It's only their business and their father's who is MJ in every meaningful way. Prince handled it perfectly.
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 27, 2020 14:40:21 GMT
Yeah thats what im asking matty. But the theory/seed comes from the tabloids back in the day and we know their motivation interms of mj hating his own race and wanting to be white.But the conversations stems from the way they look which is in itself a weak and dangerous sentiment. If prince could moonwalk and sang like mj would ppl questions itππ I wouldn't say that it is weak to look at their appearance and make conclusions. Although it's by no means an exact science and I'm not expert on genetics, but I would hazard a guess that at least one of MJs kids would have SOME kind of physical resemblance to him if they were truly biologically his. The vitiligo thing is a mindfuck. But if MJ was looking for a surrogate father, he may very well have known other people who had vitiligo due to him having the condition himself? I agree, it's ludicrous to suggest that he would deliberately seek out a person with vitiligo to throw people off the scent, I personally think it's either a strange coincidence or MJ picked a donor who he happened to know through his own treatment for vitiligo? Even Debbie was someone he knew because of his treatment, don't forget.
|
|
|
Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 27, 2020 14:41:01 GMT
Why does it have to be about race? Isn't there a possibility MJ couldn't conceive naturally? Even if it was a concerted choice to not have his own bio kids, it still doesn't necessarily need to be because of race. We know he was unhappy being reminded of Joe when he looked in the mirror (didn't MJ say that himself once?), so perhaps he didn't want to be reminded of his father when he looked at his kids. For what it's worth, I 100% believe MJ when he told Bashir that that colour of Bigi's mothers skin didn't matter to him. The fact that a black man can't adopt or have a surrogate child with a white person without being accused of self-hatred speaks more about society's prejudices than it does anything else. Would anyone say a white man having a black child was self-hatred? Madonna is never accused of self-hate for adopting black children. Though, she's accused of fetishizing black people, therefore being racist (I have seen that). So I guess it's like with interracial marriage, you can't win with interracial adoption either in the eyes of those heavily into woke identity politics. Yeah but imho its different with mj. This goes back decades with mj due to his vitiligo. When woke was connected to sleep and nothing more! It didnt start cause of presley or rowe
|
|
|
Post by MattyJam on Jul 27, 2020 14:42:36 GMT
I think Prince summed it up pretty well in this tweet. Obviously Paris feels differently and has said she is black, which is of course silly, but at the end of the day, who does it effect other than themselves?Β Exactly. Who are fans to tell them they should be bothered by this if they aren't? Or why should fans be bothered/concerned on their behalf if they aren't? It's only their business and their father's who is MJ in every meaningful way. Prince handled it perfectly. Wow, that tweet that was sent to Prince is abhorrent. Sometimes I really feel for those kids. People can be so cruel.
|
|
|
Post by respect77 on Jul 27, 2020 14:47:11 GMT
Exactly. Who are fans to tell them they should be bothered by this if they aren't? Or why should fans be bothered/concerned on their behalf if they aren't? It's only their business and their father's who is MJ in every meaningful way. Prince handled it perfectly. Wow, that tweet that was sent to Prince is abhorrent. Sometimes I really feel for those kids. People can be so cruel. Which is why I don't like these kind of discussions. Yeah, I know it's unlikely they would ever bump into this forum, but they whole thing still feels intrusive/voyeuristic to me. I feel like it's their business alone.
|
|
|
Post by elusivemoonwalker on Jul 27, 2020 14:47:45 GMT
All i can say is judging ppls parenthood based off looking like a parent or not isnt science. Theres enough comparision pics that get posted of mj and the kids.i dont mean the dodgy ones. Just cause they dont have brown skin and afro hair doesnt mean they dont have characteristics. Like i said look at mark jackson. Anyway the pools calling as im boiling my bits off hereπ·
|
|