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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2020 7:29:52 GMT
That's not evidence of anorexia at all. Kenny thought Michael had the flu or something like that which he testified Michael made a miraculous recovery from just two days after a meeting about his health.
"Tonight I was feeding him, wrapping him in blankets to warm his chills, massaging his feet to calm him and calling his doctor."
There's multiple reasons for not having an appetite and feeling cold is certainly going to suppress it.
Again, zero evidence Michael Jackson was deliberately avoiding eating due to a fear of gaining weight.
Simply none.
Ephedrine only aggravates insomnia if taken after mid-afternoon as shown previously.
Dr Shafer stated:
"Ephedrine can reduce the effects of propofol and benzodiazepines on blood pressure and heart rate."
Another use for ephedrine is for an energy boost as well as to treat breathing problems which Michael actually had at the time too.
Hardly any drug is used for one purpose and one only.
Not evidence of anorexia per se. Michael always said he forgets to eat when he's busy as well.
This is where the autopsy performed by the LA Coroner comes in - it trumps that and everything else.
Autopsy shows a man whose weight is within the acceptable range for his height.
Expert witness Dr Shafer testified Michael Jackson was a healthy 50 year old as well on the stand.
Of course, Michael Jackson had been dead for some time before the paramedics arrived at Carolwood, so that accounts for their first impression.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 11, 2020 7:47:55 GMT
MJ was at his thinnest during Thriller, but after that he actually gained some weight and that remained so until the trial. He was not fat, but he had a healthy weight. Remember how he looks in his gold pants during HIStory Tour, for example. That's a healthy weight. It's after the trial when he lost weight again, and considering he was pretty happy with a healthier weight between Bad and the early 2000s, I don't think the loss of weight after the trial had anything to do with feeling fat either. It probably had to do with him losing appetite due to the trauma of the trial. And during TII, also the stress of the rehearsals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 8:10:32 GMT
MJ was at his thinnest during Thriller, but after that he actually gained some weight and that remained so until the trial. He was not fat, but he had a healthy weight. Remember how he looks in his gold pants during HIStory Tour, for example. That's a healthy weight. It's after the trial when he lost weight again, and considering he was pretty happy with a healthier weight between Bad and the early 2000s, I don't think the loss of weight after the trial had anything to do with feeling fat either. It probably had to do with him losing appetite due to the trauma of the trial. And during TII, also the stress of the rehearsals. I think his weight would have been fine if he was heading into an office each morning and clocking off at 5pm. But with what he was about to undertake, he either needed to "bulk up" very quickly over a very short period of time, or proceed as he had been, and we could have had a very nasty and public episode on a stage. At the end of the day, no one knows what was going on in his head. I don't think he was anorexic, but I do think it's possible. I think, like you said, the stress of everything was suppressing his appetite. Then again, a simple google search contradicts what I've said above! Trainer: Michael Jackson Was in 'Fantastic Shape' Michael Jackson's trainer said the singer was energetic and ready to tour. abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackson/story?id=7963807&page=1One thing I do know, is that any eating issue is nasty and a horrible mental battle. |
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Post by ggbbggbb4455445544 on Oct 11, 2020 8:27:13 GMT
These stories of Michael supposedly having had “Anorexia Nervosa,” or some other eating disorder, of his supposedly having been “mentally ill,” an “addict” who liked to get “high,” rather than someone who was overly dependent upon things that relieved the actual and literal physical PAIN that he experienced —— from the burn injuries to his scalp, and from other physical health problems/ailments he suffered, that needed medical treatment —— are false; Not only are they false, but also attempts by the so-called “mainstream” media to unfairly label and mis-portray him as any and every which person BUT the intelligent, mentally stable (and, yes....completely SANE) man he was!!!
That was THE main rationale of the media/tabloids, for their LYING, gross misuse of his and his family’s legitimate surname (Jackson) to target him exclusively and raise questions regarding his sanity and mental health, ever since his “Thriller”-album success and virtual dominance of the industry in the Early- and Mid-1980’s, the media’s questioning and false assumptions about him getting progressively even WORSE since his Late-1980’s “BAD” era, not too long after he rightfully bought —— and then, he OWNED —— the publishing rights to music recorded and performed by White singers, that the industry still uphold as “THE Greatest of ALL Time.”
Why can’t some people fully accept that human beings —— Males as well as Females, of any and every age —— come in EVERY possible height, weight, size, shape, bone-structure, body-build, figure-type, physique, etc., that exists on this planet, and that not everyone is a greedy, over-indulgent, gluttonous eater with an enormously insatiable appetite for food, just because someone “sees it and wants to eat it,” due to having an intense desire for it simply because of it’s being visibly right in front of his/her presence? Remember, too, that compulsive overeating is as much of a severe mental-health issue as Anorexia Nervosa is.
Not all men are built like the old-fashioned big and muscle-bound “athletic” stereotypes are, either. Some of them are larger-built, some are heavier/fatter, and still others are naturally smaller-framed and thinner, like what Michael was.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2020 8:31:02 GMT
My problem with some of the reactions here and any MJ health thread is that by making out it would be impossible for Michael to be struggling with these issues you're helping stigmatise them. If you think that between 2001 - 2009 MJ wss any way near healthy then you're wrong. It was sad and desperately upsetting to see but he was suffering from mental health issues. Very understandably, especially from 2005. Amd these were also affecting his physical health. I mean for christ's sake, I know he died at the hands of an unscrupulous Doctor, but it wasn't a random incident, it was because the only way he could cope with his physical and mental pain at that time was to be doped up on the highest of painkilers and sleep aids. I wish his final few years hadn't been that way, but they were. Don't think anyone here has said it's impossible for MJ to have had mental health issues. I think it's pretty clear MJ struggled mentally for very obvious reasons. Exactly - Kenny Ortega testified that Michael had something deeper than physical health going wrong. Incredibly, he testified that Conrad Murray was furious with him for questioning Michael's mental health! The autopsy and expert witnesses were testifying to Michael's physical condition. He was not skeletal or emaciated and, in strictly physical terms, fit enough to perform. Mental health issues was obviously out of the scope of the autopsy and expert medical witnesses for obvious reasons. Kenny felt Michael needed a psychiatrist. But anorexia wasn't what he was implying or anything like that. Literally zero evidence of anorexia in Michael Jackson’s case. |
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2020 8:38:24 GMT
I believe the Glenda tapes are real, but I don't think MJ is using anorexia there in its precise medical definition, which is: "Anorexia nervosa, often referred to simply as anorexia,[11] is an eating disorder, characterized by low weight, food restriction, fear of gaining weight and a strong desire to be thin.[1] Many people with anorexia see themselves as overweight even though they are, in fact, underweight.[1][2] They often deny that they have a problem with low weight.[3] They weigh themselves frequently, eat small amounts and only eat certain foods.[1] Some exercise excessively, force themselves to vomit, or use laxatives to lose weight.[1] Complications may include osteoporosis, infertility and heart damage, among others.[1]"Do we have any evidence of any of these in MJ's case? On the Glenda tapes MJ says something along the lines of that he only had control of his eating when he's talking about when he was younger. It seems to point to a psychological element of it, but again, nothing about problems with seeing himself as fat or any of that stuff which are the characteristics of anorexia. I think MJ had some psychological issues like depression and trauma from his childhood, and later added to it by the allegations, but anorexia has a specific medical definition and I don't think that's what MJ had. Periodically he actually gained weight and he didn't seem to have a problem with seeing himself as fat for that. He looked rather happy during his marriage with LMP when he gained some weight, perhaps due to Lisa making him eat more regularly. Or compared to Thriller during Bad and Dangerous era he put on some weight and he looked happy with that. So I don't think his weight issues were a body image problem like in anorexia. In bold - yes, and Michael's autopsy shows he had no longer term health effects associated with anorexia nervosa. So, anorexia is completely out of the picture here. If he had it long term as Russ is arguing, it would show in his bones, teeth or heart, for example. Healthy 50 year old heart, if I recall correctly. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 9:28:01 GMT
I've just realised that I've an issue with something Ferrigno said
"I think he was a vegetarian. And he only ate once a day. But I just told him the proper supplements to take," Ferrigno said. "The most important thing was the attitude, the mind because he really wanted to be in his best shape."
I think??? He was advising him supplements without knowing what his diet was? Also, what kind of supplements was he providing that made up for the other 2/3 meals that he should have been eating a day!? A supplement is just that, something extra. I haven't looked into what his nutritionist or chef have said in a long time, but eating one time a day, training for 50 dates at the age of 50 was a pretty fucking big red flag.
A trainer should never advise supplements without knowing their clients diet. This is mental.
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Post by aazzaabb on Oct 11, 2020 11:00:08 GMT
I don’t believe these so-called “tapes” of what allegedly were “private” conversations between a man claiming to have been “ Michael” —— who tries his very best to imitate the sound of his voice, and to convince the public to believe that the man talking on these “private” recordings actually was him —— and, a woman named “ Glenda,” that have since been uploaded and posted all over “ YouTube,” to be taken as if the contents of these recordings were “facts,” when they are not. I really don't know what to say to you if you don't believe it is MJ talking on the Glenda tapes. Not everything is a conspiracy. What evidence do you have that it is NOT MJ on those tapes? He also mentioned anexoria in those Glenda tapes. I think he was due to that and having those pills. We saw how healthy he got in the early 00s. I don’t think he was trying to gain that weight again. What does he say specifically about anorexia in the Glenda tapes? I haven't listened to them in years and I don't recall. You have fans denying the legitimacy of those tapes simply because they can't handle the thought that MJ was a normal human being with gripes and the capacity to bitch about people in private. These fans would rather believe MJ was an angel descending from on high, gracing mankind with his divine, heavenly presence and healing the sick with just a touch of his hand. There's no helping these fans.I find these cute attempts at playing dumb by Russg a bit tedious tbh. You know damn well MJ didn't have anorexia. No I don't know damn well he didn't have anorexia. To me, and a lot of other fans mature enough to view Michael as a mere human being with flaws, we genuinely care about MJs wellbeing and found his appearance towards the end of his life very alarming.
I was genuinely shocked the first time pictures of TII rehearsals were made public following his passing. That famous pic of him in the Smooth Criminal jacket is a perfect example. He looks skeletal. The jacket is wearing him and there's not a trace of meat to him. And this was a shot officially released by AEG to the press. He did not look well, at all.As for the evidence supporting the theory that he could've struggled with anorexia, I would argue there is an abundance. Let's see: 1. Kenny Ortega saying he had to physically attempt to feed him to get him to eat 2. The use of Ephedrine in his system, a drug notoriously used to aid weight loss. Why would he be taking this when one of the main side effects can be insomnia? He was obviously invested in taking that particular drug and trying to combat the side effects with propafol. 3. A lifelong obsession with not eating 4. Paramedics called to the scene of his death mistaking the most famous man on the planet for a cancer patient You make some very true points here that I completely agree with. |
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Post by aazzaabb on Oct 11, 2020 11:01:52 GMT
I've just realised that I've an issue with something Ferrigno said "I think he was a vegetarian. And he only ate once a day. But I just told him the proper supplements to take," Ferrigno said. "The most important thing was the attitude, the mind because he really wanted to be in his best shape." I think??? He was advising him supplements without knowing what his diet was? Also, what kind of supplements was he providing that made up for the other 2/3 meals that he should have been eating a day!? A supplement is just that, something extra. I haven't looked into what his nutritionist or chef have said in a long time, but eating one time a day, training for 50 dates at the age of 50 was a pretty fucking big red flag. A trainer should never advise supplements without knowing their clients diet. This is mental. That’s very fucked up isn't it? But then Hollywood was always quite a fucked up bubble as it is. |
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Post by aazzaabb on Oct 11, 2020 11:03:49 GMT
MJ was at his thinnest during Thriller, but after that he actually gained some weight and that remained so until the trial. He was not fat, but he had a healthy weight. Remember how he looks in his gold pants during HIStory Tour, for example. That's a healthy weight. It's after the trial when he lost weight again, and considering he was pretty happy with a healthier weight between Bad and the early 2000s, I don't think the loss of weight after the trial had anything to do with feeling fat either. It probably had to do with him losing appetite due to the trauma of the trial. And during TII, also the stress of the rehearsals. Good point. He was never quite the same after the trial. |
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Post by aazzaabb on Oct 11, 2020 11:08:22 GMT
My problem with some of the reactions here and any MJ health thread is that by making out it would be impossible for Michael to be struggling with these issues you're helping stigmatise them. If you think that between 2001 - 2009 MJ wss any way near healthy then you're wrong. It was sad and desperately upsetting to see but he was suffering from mental health issues. Very understandably, especially from 2005. Amd these were also affecting his physical health. I mean for christ's sake, I know he died at the hands of an unscrupulous Doctor, but it wasn't a random incident, it was because the only way he could cope with his physical and mental pain at that time was to be doped up on the highest of painkilers and sleep aids. I wish his final few years hadn't been that way, but they were. In more general terms you’re spot on. There’s a massive tendency for fans to immediately jump on the defensive and take a concern for MJ’s well being as a personal attack which is quite mad really. For me, Michael Jackson did not look like a well man in TII. Am I suppose to be not concerned for him? He looks like he’s suffering from malnutrition to me. Now, maybe technically he isn’t, apparently. But he still looks unwell to me. |
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2020 11:31:50 GMT
I've just realised that I've an issue with something Ferrigno said "I think he was a vegetarian. And he only ate once a day. But I just told him the proper supplements to take," Ferrigno said. "The most important thing was the attitude, the mind because he really wanted to be in his best shape." I think??? He was advising him supplements without knowing what his diet was? Also, what kind of supplements was he providing that made up for the other 2/3 meals that he should have been eating a day!? A supplement is just that, something extra. I haven't looked into what his nutritionist or chef have said in a long time, but eating one time a day, training for 50 dates at the age of 50 was a pretty fucking big red flag. A trainer should never advise supplements without knowing their clients diet. This is mental. Lou Ferrigno hadn't even seen MJ for three weeks before he died and his account is essentially rubbish. Ate once a day? Really? Kai Chase states otherwise - Michael had breakfast, lunch and dinner. Lunch and dinner was spent with his kids. Murray was an occasional dinner guest of theirs. Here: www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/30/michael-jackson-chef-interviewAs such, we can comfortably disregard Lou Ferrigno without further consideration. |
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2020 11:47:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 11:51:36 GMT
I've just realised that I've an issue with something Ferrigno said "I think he was a vegetarian. And he only ate once a day. But I just told him the proper supplements to take," Ferrigno said. "The most important thing was the attitude, the mind because he really wanted to be in his best shape." I think??? He was advising him supplements without knowing what his diet was? Also, what kind of supplements was he providing that made up for the other 2/3 meals that he should have been eating a day!? A supplement is just that, something extra. I haven't looked into what his nutritionist or chef have said in a long time, but eating one time a day, training for 50 dates at the age of 50 was a pretty fucking big red flag. A trainer should never advise supplements without knowing their clients diet. This is mental. Lou Ferrigno hadn't even seen MJ for three weeks before he died and his account is essentially rubbish. Ate once a day? Really? Kai Chase states otherwise - Michael had breakfast, lunch and dinner. Lunch and dinner was spent with his kids. Murray was an occasional dinner guest of theirs. Here: www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/30/michael-jackson-chef-interviewAs such, we can comfortably disregard Lou Ferrigno without further consideration. Why would we automatically disregard anything he has to say, just because you found interviews with the chef? Considering he was his trainer, I actually want to read more into what he had to say about his routines towards the end. Three weeks wasn't three years. There's no need to be so dismissive by the way, we are only discussing here. |
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Post by aazzaabb on Oct 11, 2020 11:54:56 GMT
Lou Ferrigno hadn't even seen MJ for three weeks before he died and his account is essentially rubbish. Ate once a day? Really? Kai Chase states otherwise - Michael had breakfast, lunch and dinner. Lunch and dinner was spent with his kids. Murray was an occasional dinner guest of theirs. Here: www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/30/michael-jackson-chef-interviewAs such, we can comfortably disregard Lou Ferrigno without further consideration. Why would we automatically disregard anything he has to say, just because you found interviews with the chef? Considering he was his trainer, I actually want to read more into what he had to say about his routines towards the end. Three weeks wasn't three years. There's no need to be so dismissive by the way, we are only discussing here. I wouldn’t take it personally. PG13 has always had an intrinsic need to be right in everything he posts haha. |
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