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Post by Russg on May 2, 2021 17:53:50 GMT
Please don't attack me for starting this thread. I feel the fanbase should be able to discuss these things without fear of being flamed by other fans.
There is a debate going on between fans and guiltists on LSA about the art books found during the Neverland raid.
The hater argument is basically that one of the two "problematic" books found during the 1993 raid (Boys Will Be Boys and Boy: A Photographic Essay) were found in a locked cabinet in his bedroom, personally inscribed by MJ himself. The inscription reads: “Look at the true spirit of happiness and joy in these boys’ faces. This is the spirit of boyhood, a life I never had and will always dream of. This is the life I want for my children, MJ.”
Apparently it is very commonplace for these titles to be found in the homes of pedophiles, although it is not illegal. The photographer and editor of the books in question are actually convincted pedophiles themselves.
I personally don't see the fact that it was found in a locked cabinet in his bedroom as especially relevant, as the cabinet was unlocked during the 1993 raid by the maid. If MJ was storing this book for sinister reasons, then why would he give the key to a random maid? That makes no sense to me.
Apparently one of the books was gifted to him by a fan (it has an inscription inside), but we don't know how he came to possess the other. The haters on LSA maintain that the fact that he kept these books is a sign of his guilt. Of course, I don't agree, but I can see why guiltists cling to it. One good point I read from a fan on LSA was, if MJ had this book for nefarious reasons, why would he make that inscription? To throw people off the scent in case it was ever found? That sounds preposterous. The more likely explanation is that he simply didn't view the pictures in a sexual way.
What do fans think about this?
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486 
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Post by TonyR on May 2, 2021 18:31:19 GMT
Everywhere you turn as a Michael Jackson fan, you're reminded that he was accused of heinous crimes, a 'dodgy' character, a 'troubled' genius.
Even on the fan boards.
I don't mind the odd controversial thread Russ. But not the ones about the accusations.
I really want to avoid it.
I know we've discussed the music to death but I'd rather have another Invincible thread than this.
Not having a go, but just for once I like to read about Michael Jackson and not be reminded of the shit. That's why I first started going on the forums.
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Post by Russg on May 2, 2021 20:08:05 GMT
Everywhere you turn as a Michael Jackson fan, you're reminded that he was accused of heinous crimes, a 'dodgy' character, a 'troubled' genius. Even on the fan boards. I don't mind the odd controversial thread Russ. But not the ones about the accusations. I really want to avoid it. I know we've discussed the music to death but I'd rather have another Invincible thread than this. Not having a go, but just for once I like to read about Michael Jackson and not be reminded of the shit. That's why I first started going on the forums. I get that, but if fans can't discuss this stuff with fellow fans then what does that leave us with? Debating with the haters? I would personally rather discuss this stuff with fellow fans who believe MJ was innocent than trolls who try to paint any and every life choice MJ made in a bad light in their never ending quest to paint MJ as a monster. Don't you think it's important that the fans feel they can discuss this stuff? I do. How else can you know what to believe if certain topics are off-limits just because it's a "fanboard"? What about new fans who want to learn about this stuff for the first time? If they don't learn it from the fans they will learn it from the haters and probably end up believing MJ was guilty. |
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Post by butterflies2 on May 2, 2021 21:19:25 GMT
Thankfully no one has brought that up to me, or I wouldn’t know what to say over that. I’ve seen the debate online in the past too
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486
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Post by TonyR on May 2, 2021 21:28:56 GMT
Everywhere you turn as a Michael Jackson fan, you're reminded that he was accused of heinous crimes, a 'dodgy' character, a 'troubled' genius. Even on the fan boards. I don't mind the odd controversial thread Russ. But not the ones about the accusations. I really want to avoid it. I know we've discussed the music to death but I'd rather have another Invincible thread than this. Not having a go, but just for once I like to read about Michael Jackson and not be reminded of the shit. That's why I first started going on the forums. I get that, but if fans can't discuss this stuff with fellow fans then what does that leave us with? Debating with the haters? I would personally rather discuss this stuff with fellow fans who believe MJ was innocent than trolls who try to paint any and every life choice MJ made in a bad light in their never ending quest to paint MJ as a monster. Don't you think it's important that the fans feel they can discuss this stuff? I do. How else can you know what to believe if certain topics are off-limits just because it's a "fanboard"? What about new fans who want to learn about this stuff for the first time? If they don't learn it from the fans they will learn it from the haters and probably end up believing MJ was guilty. I don't battle with haters online because that is exactly what they want and engaging gives the hater the attention and views that they crave In terms of wanting to discuss it, I get that but I guess that's what the Trials bit of the forum was created for. So for those like me who've had nearly 30 years (unbelievably) of seeing all this shit can quite happily turn a blind eye to it amd just talk about how great Dangerous is for the umpteenth time. Personally, I can never understand how a thread about music will get about 5 responses but a thread about the negative stuff or the fact that someone has posted on Twitter that they dare to prefer Prince or Beyoncé and the thread will blow up. To paraphrase the Black Eyed Peas I think a good chunk of the fanbase is addicted to the drama. |
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Post by butterflies2 on May 2, 2021 22:59:27 GMT
So true about drama being addictive, I used to fall into that pattern ages ago but have calmed down for some time
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Post by ghost on May 3, 2021 1:49:06 GMT
I agree with Russ that fans should feel comfortable to talk about these hater arguments, but he knows full well there's a seperate forum for this stuff.
As for the issue raised, I'm not exactly sure what's left to say about it or what you're actually asking? It is pretty clear to me from the inscription Michael wrote in the book that he didn't perceive the images to be anything other than a portrait of boyhood. The book isn't illegal, nothing illegal was ever found in either 1993 or 2005 and the only sexually explicit material found on his premises was a rather sizeable collection of heterosexual and lesbian pornography, amassed over many years.
Haters try to act like these books are smoking guns, but they're really not.
He never hid the fact that he was fascinated and inspired by childhood innocence, so him having picture books depicting children at play comes as no surprise. The fact that some of the images are of children unclothed is not really a huge deal. It's the human body, unless the pictures are depicted in a sexual way, then I really don't see the problem. Haters love using inflammatory terms such as "half naked" which often means without a top half, or they'll make a huge deal if there's a fully unclothed image, as if that automatically has to be a sexual thing. It is possible to view the human form in a non sexual way, not everybody has their minds in the gutter.
I'm sure this material can be problematic in the wrong hands, but it's not as if MJ had a large collection of this stuff to raise any red flags. The only large collection he had was of heterosexual pornography.
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Post by WildStyle on May 3, 2021 2:28:52 GMT
The whole locked cabinet and only the maid had a key story always felt a bit dodgy to me. Wouldn't be surprised if they found the books with the rest of his books.
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Post by elusivemoonwalker on May 3, 2021 7:57:16 GMT
It was dodgy. It was Blanca who hadnt worked there for years yet had a key and knew what was in it.
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Post by respect77 on May 3, 2021 7:58:53 GMT
Everywhere you turn as a Michael Jackson fan, you're reminded that he was accused of heinous crimes, a 'dodgy' character, a 'troubled' genius. Even on the fan boards. I don't mind the odd controversial thread Russ. But not the ones about the accusations. I really want to avoid it. I know we've discussed the music to death but I'd rather have another Invincible thread than this. Not having a go, but just for once I like to read about Michael Jackson and not be reminded of the shit. That's why I first started going on the forums. Same. And if someone is so itching to discuss it or anything about the allegations why post this in the main forum when we have a dedicated forum for allegations talk? I'm sure RussG is well aware of the Trials and Tribulations section of the forum and that its purpose is exactly that we don't litter the main forum with allegations talk. It feels like attention seeking. Thing is any allegations thread where haters appear will soon turn into a discussion about these books because that's all they've got. This thread you are talking about on LSA is about the Robson dismissal but of course haters had to turn it into a discussion about these books. I remember this was the same during the 2005 trial on Court TV forums, with haters going in circles about these two books all the damn time while completely ignoring the entirety of the case. Guess what? The jury saw these books and acquitted MJ. That's how much weight they really had. As for it supposedly being made by pedophiles. Haters probably have done more research into these books and looked at them more and obsessed over them more than MJ ever did. Ironically some of them are buying copies of them. MJ didn't have Google to go and research the background of any of the photographers in the book. And if the Library of Congress is able to miss whatever nefarious intention any of the creators of the book might have had and they were able to look at these books and find it OK to put it in the Library of Congress, it's certainly possible for MJ to also not pick up on whatever nefarious intention anyone might have had with those books. The books record in the US Library of Congress catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=1547&recPointer=0&recCount=25&bibId=8457502catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=1539&recCount=25&recPointer=1&bibId=6595584MJ's inscription says it all re. how he saw them and what he saw in them. "This is the life I want for my children" doesn't sound like a sexual interest to me. The photos are actually a lot like the statues at Neverland, with scenes of children playing, fishing, climbing trees etc, only in the books you have nude kids as well, unlike the NL statues. The nudity probably just didn't phase him. He was into and used to art photography and nudity in art photography is pretty common and not a big deal. And let's not forget either, that this was 30 years ago, people were less alarmed by child nudity at the time and didn't necessarily think anything of it. I remember when in 2005 Diane Dimond dangled these books around on TV and even she said in themselves they might mean nothing and if it's found in the possession of someone who's generally interested in art photography, it might be just that. What she forgot to mention that it was exactly that context with MJ. He's been an avid fan of art photography and a collector of all kinds of art photography books since was a teenager. BTW, I'm not sure about this contention that objections to such topics mean we are "not allowed to" discuss it. I guess fans are just tired of it. It's been 30 years of discussing it. Over and over and over and over again. Like I said, if you went to Court TV forums in 2005 you had the same discussion there about these books than what you just discovered on LSA. It's the same old hater talking points. And fans reply with their usual points as well. I'm not sure what's to discuss in it such topics over and over again. For decades. But if that's what you want at least be kind to put it in the proper section of the forum. |
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Post by pg13 on May 3, 2021 10:50:34 GMT
This is essentially a Rorschach test where it reveals the thinking or disordered thinking of the individual towards the aforementioned books.
If you want to believe a person is a paedo, it's going to taint your thinking towards them.
And so on.
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Post by Russg on May 3, 2021 14:18:35 GMT
The reason I posted it here instead of the other section was because I didn't want it to get buried in some old thread from 3 years ago, but alas, respect77 carries on her vendetta against me. I don't know who put her in charge of the MJ fan community but @mattyjam allows her to bully freely on this board.
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Post by MattyJam on May 3, 2021 14:44:49 GMT
The reason I posted it here instead of the other section was because I didn't want it to get buried in some old thread from 3 years ago, but alas, respect77 carries on her vendetta against me. I don't know who put her in charge of the MJ fan community but @mattyjam allows her to bully freely on this board. I don't think it's bullying to point out that there is a Trials & Tribulations section. You've been a member of this forum long enough to know that these type of threads belong in that section. It may not get the same attention, but there's a good chunk of fans who don't want to see this kind of content in the main MJ section and you must respect that. |
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Post by respect77 on May 3, 2021 15:14:35 GMT
The reason I posted it here instead of the other section was because I didn't want it to get buried in some old thread from 3 years ago, but alas, respect77 carries on her vendetta against me. I don't know who put her in charge of the MJ fan community but @mattyjam allows her to bully freely on this board. Except I wasn't the only one pointing out you should have posted it in the proper section. At least two other people did before me. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 8:44:59 GMT
Please don't attack me for starting this thread. I feel the fanbase should be able to discuss these things without fear of being flamed by other fans. There is a debate going on between fans and guiltists on LSA about the art books found during the Neverland raid. The hater argument is basically that one of the two "problematic" books found during the 1993 raid (Boys Will Be Boys and Boy: A Photographic Essay) were found in a locked cabinet in his bedroom, personally inscribed by MJ himself. The inscription reads: “Look at the true spirit of happiness and joy in these boys’ faces. This is the spirit of boyhood, a life I never had and will always dream of. This is the life I want for my children, MJ.” Apparently it is very commonplace for these titles to be found in the homes of pedophiles, although it is not illegal. The photographer and editor of the books in question are actually convincted pedophiles themselves. I personally don't see the fact that it was found in a locked cabinet in his bedroom as especially relevant, as the cabinet was unlocked during the 1993 raid by the maid. If MJ was storing this book for sinister reasons, then why would he give the key to a random maid? That makes no sense to me. Apparently one of the books was gifted to him by a fan (it has an inscription inside), but we don't know how he came to possess the other. The haters on LSA maintain that the fact that he kept these books is a sign of his guilt. Of course, I don't agree, but I can see why guiltists cling to it. One good point I read from a fan on LSA was, if MJ had this book for nefarious reasons, why would he make that inscription? To throw people off the scent in case it was ever found? That sounds preposterous. The more likely explanation is that he simply didn't view the pictures in a sexual way. What do fans think about this? I think there's 2 things here Russg. 1, is that these books weren't considered to be smoking enough to help convict him in 2005. Now, you could argue that the trial was not about whether Michael Jackson was a pedophile, but more specifically whether or not he abused Arvizo. However, I lean towards the jury understanding that there was nithing sinister behind having a copy of these books. Number 2, is that I think everyone will just have to make their own personal judgments on many things, without being able to find something concrete to confirm either A or B. I personally wouldn't be caught dead with those books, but that also doesn't mean I think there was something sinister behind it given all we know about the man's personality. But, it's definitely OK to not be comfortable with certain things, and I think it's healthy to ask. It shows that fans aren't just "drinking the kool-aid". |
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