Seven
Wondering Who
Posts: 75
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Post by Seven on Nov 1, 2022 4:14:23 GMT
When discussing his fame, he's described as a god.
He can do nothing wrong.
When they look at his body, he's objectified. For thousands of pages no less.
When he's visibly upset recalling past trauma, he's treated as if he's just a sad little boy that needs a hug.
First off I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but it's something that's been on my mind that I want to get out.
The "problem" I'm referring to is that people don't see Michael Jackson as a person, they see him as an entity. An enormous, influential figure whose reach stretches worldwide. The embodiment of the industry that he revolutionized, the instrument through which song and dance was revolutionized and remolded. "Michael Jackson" is not a name, but a title. Michael Jackson is not a boy, a man, or a human; he's Michael Jackson.
We all know how Michael was portrayed in the media. He was dehumanized, even prior to the abuse allegations. The visibility of him as an entertainer from such a young age only set him up for lifelong turmoil, internally and externally. His changing appearance fueled the fire, his blackness erased by the press and, to an extent, by his fans. His fans have proven to be ferocious, rising to his defense even under the most minor of circumstances. He's often hailed as "an angel," "pure," "innocent." Words you may use to describe a literal child, but hardly ever an adult man, whose genitals and rear end they just as well like to ogle over. He's the object of their affections, emphasis on object.
In instances where fans would meet him, they would often collapse into hysterics, either on stage or off. Other times they would just straight-up assault him, either by rushing him, hugging him deathly tight, or even kissing him. Fans that would be brought on stage with him would have to ripped away by bodyguards when their time was up. People were packed into overcrowded concert venues to the point of passing out, shaking, screaming, and crying, all endured for Michael Jackson. I'm shocked that nobody died during those events, unless there's information I haven't personally seen.
Even by his fans, he was dehumanized. Going from the low-end extreme to the high-end extreme did the man no favours. When he went out unannounced, for an outing or an interview, what did he have to be careful of? Not only the media, but fans. News of his presence anywhere would spread like wildfire, and he'd be swarmed in record time. He was a victim of his own fame, not only by his detractors. Even today, I see youtube comment sections full of words that glorify MJ's very existence, that act as though he was sent straight from heaven to bless the world with his untarnished soul. They defend him at every corner, fawn over his smile and laughter, yet gloss over his humanity. Michael was not perfect; he had many flaws, as we all do. He was not always kind to people. He was not always a perfect father. He didn't always have people's best interests at heart. He sometimes wasn't considerate. These are all just inherent aspects of being a person, but to imply that Michael was anything but godlike perfection is almost heresy.
And then, there are the facts of his past and personal life. I have hardly ever seen his most avid fans speak up about how inappropriate certain interview questions were, merely commenting on how "cute" or "funny" his reaction is to being blindsided with such personal prodding. Questions like Oprah asking him if he was a virgin, Diane Sawyer asking about his and Lisa Marie's sex life and his "androgyny," and Barbara Walters justifying the press' treatment of him by pointing out how he looks and dresses. They "aww" over his visible upset, they laugh over his discomfort and act like it's all just a game, like he's just being shy or teasing his fans by not answering. When he's upset by remembering his father's beatings or how he hated his appearance, they act as if all he needed was a kiss on the cheek. They say they want to hug him, hold him, tell him it's all going to be okay. I never see them say they'd take him to a fucking therapist. They treat his trauma as nothing more than a tragic backstory, like he's just a damaged fictional character that needs nothing more than love and cuddles and everything will be all right. Fans drool over his physique and how lithe he was. When he collapses from exhaustion onstage or is visibly in pain, he's praised for his hard work and dedication.
Nobody ever seems to consider the psychological abuse he endured growing up in order to cause de-prioritizing of the self to that degree. He hardly ate. He hardly slept. He had an autoimmune disorder. It really seemed that he never put himself first, unless the circumstances were dire. That's not selflessness or dedication, that's self-destruction. And his fans act as if it's a testament to his purity and goodness and not an example of how he needed real, serious help.
He's not evil, and he's not a god. He's a human being, physically nothing more or less than you or me.
(fwiw there is nothing inherently wrong with finding Michael attractive. That thread I screenshotted just focuses specifically on his junk, which is certainly something.)
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Post by respect77 on Nov 1, 2022 4:40:08 GMT
Regarding the quotes you picked above, I don't think any of this is so serious. People are just having some fun online. I don't see any problem with those. The world has lot more serious problems than people doing a bit of harmless online "stanning". (As for people discussing his junk. If MJ had been so bothered by that he wouldn't have put on those gold pants. He knew what he was doing there. Just like other pop and rock stars know what they are doing when they wear sexy or even provocative outfit. Fans are just reacting to that.)
As for the issues you raise in your post, some have merit, but then I think the desire to psychoanalyze and pathologize his every move may also be a problem. Depending on the context.
Of course, he wasn't perfect. He probably needed therapy. But you don't have to point that out every time you see a video of him or every time you see people fanboying and fangirling a bit. People should be allowed to have some lighthearted fun when discussing him without everything being psychoanalyzed and pathologized. Again, it depends on the context of the discussion. When people comment on an interview on YouTube, I don't think most of them are there for an in-depth psychoanalyzis and discussion of the mental health of MJ. So I personally don't see a problem with it when someone just comments "I'd so hug him" when he's talking about his childhood trauma. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
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Post by WildStyle on Nov 1, 2022 7:33:51 GMT
I basically agree. I think some things are just harmless fun while other things are unhealthy. You can only hope that people will grow out of it, but clearly some never do. I think if people don't grow out of celebrity worship by the time they've left their teens, there may be some other issues at play.
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Seven
Wondering Who
Posts: 75
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Post by Seven on Nov 1, 2022 7:48:45 GMT
Regarding the quotes you picked above, I don't think any of this is so serious. People are just having some fun online. I don't see any problem with those. The world has lot more serious problems than people doing a bit of harmless online "stanning". (As for people discussing his junk. If MJ had been so bothered by that he wouldn't have put on those gold pants. He knew what he was doing there. Just like other pop and rock stars know what they are doing when they wear sexy or even provocative outfit. Fans are just reacting to that.) As for the issues you raise in your post, some have merit, but then I think the desire to psychoanalyze and pathologize his every move may also be a problem. Depending on the context. Of course, he wasn't perfect. He probably needed therapy. But you don't have to point that out every time you see a video of him or every time you see people fanboying and fangirling a bit. People should be allowed to have some lighthearted fun when discussing him without everything being psychoanalyzed and pathologized. Again, it depends on the context of the discussion. When people comment on an interview on YouTube, I don't think most of them are there for an in-depth psychoanalyzis and discussion of the mental health of MJ. So I personally don't see a problem with it when someone just comments "I'd so hug him" when he's talking about his childhood trauma. I don't see how that's a bad thing. I don't at all intend to discourage people from having fun, I mainly threw this together based on my own observations and experiences from when I was on other boards. I know I certainly had a "saviour complex" when I saw him hurting in interviews and whatnot, and I know for a fact others did too. I just see a stark lack of meaningful conversation and insight in general when it comes to him and his complexities as a person. I added the screenshots to better illustrate my point and to show that I wasn't just pulling stuff out of thin air. I think some of this may stem from a frustration of people in my life not taking my own deep-seated issues seriously, despite the fact that I can recognize them in myself. There could be a degree of projection going on here on my part I suppose. Thank you for your perspective
Definitely. I do know there are grown people out there that are like that, though certainly not only with MJ.
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Post by ghost on Nov 1, 2022 9:10:01 GMT
I do think MJ was a special human being, not better than you or I, but certainly blessed with almost supernatural levels of talent and a pure heart which is very rare to find. I think this is why some of the fan worship feels a bit intense at times, because he possessed some very rare qualities which most public figures don't have. When you have a guy who is a prodigious talent from childhood who grows into a man who captures the minds and hearts of millions of people, from all nations and backgrounds and then you add to that his eccentric, larger than life persona and his humanitarian efforts, it's not hard to see why he is put on such a pedestal. Especially when much of the so-called "talent" in the entertainment industry is of such a mediocre standard by comparison.
Of course, there was a real human being behind MJ the superhero, but some of the fan worship is a direct response to the fact that he is also perceived by some as a super-villain, a man accused of the worst possible crimes imaginable and dehumanized in a way few public figures are. He is a rare public figure who is both glorified and vilified in equal measures and the human being behind it all often gets forgotten.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 1, 2022 9:16:57 GMT
Well, yes, the fans were part of the problem and it certainly wasn't solely the media or sections of the general public.
Consider the characterisation of fans in Speed Demon as carnivorous in a demonic manner. This would reflect Michael's personal perspective of the effects of fan behaviour. We see a similar thing in Pepsi The Chase adverts - this is a continuation of it.
Consider his comments about feeling like spaghetti in a crowd of fans or encountering fans who couldn't believe he was real and had a shit like everyone else.
Consider the lyrics that actually does speak to his perception of the fans:
Pair that with his comment on a sea of fans chanting his name outside his hotel which compounded his sense of isolated loneliness and led to writing SIM. The fanbase thought they knew him, but he acknowledged they didn't really and only saw what they wanted to see.
Not the real human being being the Star.
Very seldom do we see much acknowledgment of the negative effects of fandom on the Star themselves.
There was always someone wanting to gain something from him, including the fans and especially those with a Saviour Complex....no wonder Michael found it difficult to trust people.
Children were the last refuge and even that was eventually taken from him.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 1, 2022 9:23:42 GMT
And yet part of the problem was Michael's desire to cultivate a mysterious, otherworldly persona.
Partly as self-protection, but Partly due to the position of a Star is insecure and the public are fickle. Thus, he kept himself in people's minds when he wasn't doing a thing. He spoke of a fear of people no longer talking about him - "...that's when you start to worry."
Being mysterious WILL result in fan worship and all the other stuff. World leaders wanted to meet him. Michael wrote about becoming MJ and as well known as Coca-Cola. Mystery was the thing that allowed him to initiate it all. But it cannot be controlled by the Star.
So, there's no one primary cause even though most of the fanbase believes there is.
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Post by NatureCriminal7896 on Nov 1, 2022 10:02:37 GMT
Hello! welcome to the forum! πππ
you not the only fan that feels this way.
i agree with some your statement and i get tired of it too. that's some of the reasons why many leave the community.
Michael was a sinner, a human being just like the rest of us. he wasn't perfect. he was an average shy sensitive man who was just gifted. that's it. he wasn't God or Mickey Mouse or a Cartoon or an Angel.
Michael even said it himself and alot of his friends, acquaintances, and family has said this too.
yes these fans annoyed me too. what i notice in the community is there alot people who idol Michael because of their own struggles, problems, and trauma.
while there's nothing wrong with that it at the end of the day Michael wasn't a doctor, therapist, etc.
now Michael was a naive guy but he was very smart.
yeah even Michael got tired of his fans. he loved all his fans but he was still a human being who wanted to live his life without the superstar sometimes.
you can really blame his dad and some of family for that because he was forced into it.
Michael definitely needed therapy. it been said from many fans. let me start of by saying going to therapy isn't a bad thing. the world has made it seem going to talk to someone is bad or your crazy etc. it's really sad how this been portrait.
i go to therapy and let me tell you i been great with it. even the smartest and talented people in world have gone to therapy.
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Post by NatureCriminal7896 on Nov 1, 2022 10:27:02 GMT
there's nothing wrong making jokes and having fun but it does gets to a point where it gets too much.
Michael wasn't object. he even said it himself. in an interview he said he feel so dirty doing some stuff on stage because knew what perverts was thinking.
he only did it for the fame. like i said you can blame his dad and some of the family for that.
this is hollyweird.
some fans over the age 30+ be doing this and there some teens as well. like go out there and get into a relationship than make Michael your object.
look at Michael's songs some of them was about this.
Michael was a very attractive man but he wasn't an object. πππ
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Post by Michaels Lover on Nov 1, 2022 10:42:38 GMT
The Manhood thread on MJJC doesn't only discuss his junk. It might be the title of the thread, but if you read the actual thread, you would see that they don't talk about that only. especially lately, it's been other things. So it's 1168 pages long, but not all those pages are junk worshipping
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Post by NatureCriminal7896 on Nov 1, 2022 14:30:26 GMT
i believe Michael had something going with him spiritually. he even said it himself and his friends, acquaintances, and family.
but he wasn't any of that stuff i said above.
he was a regular human being. yes Michael was kind and gentle but he was also stubborn and a brat. πππ
i remember i was talking to some fans and one of them said the samething i said and some fans got mad. πππ
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Post by aazzaabb on Nov 1, 2022 14:38:03 GMT
i believe Michael had something going with him spiritually. he even said it himself and his friends, acquaintances, and family. but he wasn't any of that stuff i said above. he was a regular human being. yes Michael was kind and gentle with but he was also stubborn and a brat. πππ i remember i was talking to some fans and one of them said the samething i said and some fans got mad. πππ How dare you say that about Michael! He was a lovely man! ππ€£
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Seven
Wondering Who
Posts: 75
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Post by Seven on Nov 1, 2022 16:53:42 GMT
The Manhood thread on MJJC doesn't only discuss his junk. It might be the title of the thread, but if you read the actual thread, you would see that they don't talk about that only. especially lately, it's been other things. So it's 1168 pages long, but not all those pages are junk worshipping I know the content of that threat very well lol, I posted in it quite a bit a number of years ago. That's certainly what it was all about back when I was posting, I haven't felt driven to investigate it recently.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2022 18:06:56 GMT
Fandoms are pretty much a cesspit on every corner of the internet IMO. The main ones I've come across at large are MJ ones obviously, Zack Snyder ones and Swift fans. Thankfully I've grown to ignore everything and my mute list on Twitter etc. is extensive.
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Post by Snow White on Nov 1, 2022 18:16:08 GMT
How people hurt anyone if some decide to worship Michael, in this case? At least there's plenty of proof MJ existed, the fans don't commit heinous crimes in crimes in his name, didn't promote worldwide conflicts or wars, unlike with the supernatural beings, so called gods and their adherents of those religions.
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