Post by respect77 on Oct 14, 2023 4:20:09 GMT
There has been a lot of misinformation and unverified claims on both sides these past few days. There is also no evidence of Hamas beheading babies even though everyone keeps repeating this, though they've committed other atrocities of course.
I find the whole discussion of the beheaded babies and rapes so absurd. From the article that you cited:
“We got very very disturbing reports that came from the ground that there were babies that had been beheaded… I think we can now say with relative confidence that unfortunately this is what happened in Be’eri,” [IDF spokesman, Jonathan Conricus] said.
In any case, I don't know what possible difference it makes if all the 40 babies were beheaded or "just" some beheaded and the rest slaughtered otherwise? I find this discussion as some sort of "gotcha" moment about Israel lying about victims pretty morbid and absurd.
This tweet sums up the absurdity of the discussion of the beheaded babies:
In the same breath Hamas sympathizers also tried to gaslight about the rape claims, saying there was no evidence of rapes.
“We got very very disturbing reports that came from the ground that there were babies that had been beheaded… I think we can now say with relative confidence that unfortunately this is what happened in Be’eri,” [IDF spokesman, Jonathan Conricus] said.
In any case, I don't know what possible difference it makes if all the 40 babies were beheaded or "just" some beheaded and the rest slaughtered otherwise? I find this discussion as some sort of "gotcha" moment about Israel lying about victims pretty morbid and absurd.
This tweet sums up the absurdity of the discussion of the beheaded babies:
In the same breath Hamas sympathizers also tried to gaslight about the rape claims, saying there was no evidence of rapes.
There HAVE been survivor eye witness accounts of rape. For example, I saw a male survivor who was at the music festival talk about seeing that. And when I saw one of the first footage that came out of this terrorist attack, which was about a kidnapped woman, I remember when I saw the back of her pants my first thought was immediately "OMG! She was brutally raped!" - and this before any reports of discussion of rapes came in.
Terrorist apologists are of course are trying to be dismissive of this, like:
Terrorist apologists are of course are trying to be dismissive of this, like:
I also saw a footage of terrorists showing off their female hostages and talking of them as sex slaves.
The whole discussion is so absurd! As if it was so unbelievable that this monsters who are on camera of carrying out the most horrible atrocities wouldn't be capable of raping women or as if it would make a difference if all babies were beheaded or just some or none were beheaded "just" slaughtered otherwise. I guess if they weren't beheaded it makes it better? I really don't get the hung up on this.
There are countless of unspeakable violations on camera. I personally saw a video in which a terrorist was trying to behead a Thai guest worker with a garden hoe! He was already beaten to half dead, but could still move a little so he wasn't dead yet. It was horrible! But oh no, they wouldn't rape women, they are gentlemen! Rape is such a common war crime, Russians do that in Ukraine, for example, but somehow it is unthinkable that Hamas of all people would do that?
There are countless of unspeakable violations on camera. I personally saw a video in which a terrorist was trying to behead a Thai guest worker with a garden hoe! He was already beaten to half dead, but could still move a little so he wasn't dead yet. It was horrible! But oh no, they wouldn't rape women, they are gentlemen! Rape is such a common war crime, Russians do that in Ukraine, for example, but somehow it is unthinkable that Hamas of all people would do that?
BTW, in the footage that the above picture was taken from it was also visible that they cut this women's Achilles so that she wouldn't be able to escape. But rape? Oh now! They wouldn't be capable of that! She just has her period. Yeah, that must be it.
Regarding Hamas' supposed power, they are not an existential threat to Israel at all. For every Israeli killed, Israel kills 10 more Palestinians. Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the entire world, with the full backing of the United States. Just read the stats on how many Palestinians are injured and killed in Israeli attacks and vice versa, there is a massive gap.
Well, Germany had more deaths in WW2 than, say Britain or France or the Netherlands, does that mean Germany wasn't a threat to the UK or France or the Netherlands?
That a terror organization that's expressed goal in its Charta is the elimination of Israel and that has just carried out the terror attack that we have seen is not an existential threat to Israel is a weird claim. Just because they aren't capable of doing it now it doesn't mean the intention is not there and they wouldn't do it if they were allowed to grow and operate freely. They are also not just some lone group, they enjoy the backing of Iran and other Islamist donors, just like Hezbollah. And probably Russia too.
As for the number of deaths, that has many reasons and one of the main ones is that Hamas deliberately uses its civilians as human shields and deliberately plants its launchers, headquarters in densely populated areas. (I posted evidence of this earlier in this discussion, please go back and check if you don't believe it.) Israel meanwhile tries to defend its civilian population by all means. Islamism is a completely different mindset regarding the protection of human life of their own than Judaism. Palestinians have this cult of "martyrdom", they often actively seek it too. Actually Palestinians love to say the slogan that guarantee for victory is that "we love death more than they love life"...
But imagine the blood bath if the Iron Dome didn't exist! Imagine the blood bath if Israel fell asleep on the threat at its doorstep! Well, we got a taste of what would happen then on Saturday when they did fall asleep. It's not for a lack of intent on Palestinian part that there aren't more Israeli deaths, it's for the lack of opportunities that Israel allows them. And of course, Israel doesn't use its own population as human shields for international sympathy.
Therefore the blockade of Gaza is also understandable. The history of how we got there is long. But just to be clear: Israel has NOT occupied Gaza since 2005. (Maybe they will now again out of necessity.) They left Gaza then. They dragged out every last Jewish settler as well, leaving it to Palestinians completely. That was a goodwill gesture on part of Israel, an intended first step towards peace. They left all Jewish infrastructure in Gaza as well, such as greenhouses, for Palestinians to use. Instead Gazans destroyed the greenhouses and turned them into weapons and in 2007 they elected Hamas, a Jew-hating Islamist terrorist organization in power. And since then Gaza is used as a launch pad for regular rocketing of Israel. This is what Israel got in exchange for the extended hand. If not for the Iron Dome there would be a LOT more Israeli deaths. Would that make people more capable of empathizing with their POV and acknowledge the existential threat of living among entities that want them dead (not just Hamas, but also Hezbollah and other Iran proxies)? Is it really true that Jews need to be dead to get some sympathy and understanding for their POV?
BTW, a little known or mentioned fact is, that Israel isn't the only country that put Gaza under blockade. Egypt did too. From Israel's side the blockade is understandable considering Gaza has a government whose expressed goal is their elimination. But what is Egypt's excuse? And why does the international community hardly every criticize THEM for the blockade? Maybe, just maybe, even Egypt is wary of Hamas terrorists running around in their country, even though they are not the enemy and target of those terrorists like Israel is.
And finally regarding Egypt or other Arab nations not taking in Palestinian refugees en masse, this is often mentioned as a 'gotcha' against them but I can see why they don't believe this will help Palestine in the long term. The moment Palestinians leave Palestine to settle somewhere else, Israel will take over those territories and colonise them just as they have done before when Palestinians were forced to flee. And then the hope for a Palestinian state will be truly lost. This is also why Hamas urges Palestinians to stay in their homes despite Israel's threats. Well that, and the fact that they can use Palestinian casualties for political gain.
BTW, when I mentioned the Egyptian blockade I didn't just refer to the current situation, but the rather the situation before the current war. Egypt too has had Gaza under blockade for long! Also, as I read the blockade also has been, in part at least, supported by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (who resides in the West Bank). For example, an article from 2010:
Abbas to Obama: I'm Against Lifting the Gaza Naval Blockade
The Palestinian president reportedly told Obama that lifting the naval blockade of Gaza would bolster Hamas, a move that shouldn't be done at this stage.
The Palestinian president reportedly told Obama that lifting the naval blockade of Gaza would bolster Hamas, a move that shouldn't be done at this stage.
So once again, it is a bit more complicated than the "evil Israel just wants Gazans to be poor and struggling" and the "open-air-prison" narrative.
(Note: While Abbas/the PA is not against terrorism, as they too sponsor and encourage it - see the pay-for-slay policy I mentioned earlier - but the PA/Fatah and Hamas are not on good terms with each other. They both hate Israel but they don't like each other either. In fact, when Hamas came into power in Gaza in 2007, one of the first things they did was murdering Fatah members. See more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict )
As for "colonization", trust me, except for maybe some extremists, Israel doesn't want or need Gaza. Now they will be probably forced to control it again if they can, but it is a burden to them, not something they are eager to do. Gaza was governed by Egypt between 1947-67, it came under Israeli control when they won the Six-day war in 1967. Israel later actually offered Egypt to take it back, but they did not want it. Like said above, in 2005 Israel unilaterally left the area. That's how much Israel wants or needs Gaza as a "colony"! It's a burden to them. They'd happily leave it all to Palestinians, they'd also happily lift the blockade and get into a good and peaceful partnership with them, if there were guarantees or even just a credible intent for a peaceful coexistence on the Palestinian side. But the opposite is true. Before this war Israel already started to issue work permits for Gazans in Isreal. I think there were 15-20 thousand such work permits. As it turns out, this current attack was prepared in large part by people with such work permits...