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Post by Russg on Oct 10, 2023 13:20:18 GMT
I have to be honest, I've seen this all over the news but I have no idea what the conflict is over or who Hamas really is. Can anyone explain it to me?
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Post by pg13 on Oct 10, 2023 14:05:55 GMT
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is, arguably, the most complicated, protracted you can think of.
I'm familiar with much of the issues with my base of knowledge centred around terrorism, security and counter-terrorism.
Start small - What is Hamas?
Here's a short BBC clip explaining it which I've watched a bit of.
Bit of contextual history - Hamas, Hezbollah, Provisional IRA, FARC, MK (armed wing of ANC), etc were part of an international terrorist network. Iran and Colonel Gaddafi's Libya enabled terrorist groups like these. Anyway, you'll usually find most of the same supporters of these groups arguing each others case against sovereign States online.
I also recommend reading the 24 page report entitled "Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza 2008-2014" from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence.
NATO StratCom COE is not the same thing as NATO Command. But both are under the NATO umbrella.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 18:21:50 GMT
A video I saw this morning will stay with me forever. I watched it twice before I realised the context, as it wasn't labelled.
No words, really.
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Post by respect77 on Oct 10, 2023 18:34:15 GMT
I'm in shock since Saturday.
The way people celebrate the mass murder, rape, kidnapping of civilians, women, children at these pro-Palestine demonstrations. I have no words. This is what it must have been like for Jews in the 1920s, 1930s with brownshirts marching up and down the streets.
There are a lot more videos.
They are celebrating but I think the "Palestinian cause" too died on Saturday.
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Post by Russg on Oct 10, 2023 20:12:30 GMT
So are Hamas a terrorist organisation?
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Post by mjjfan810 on Oct 10, 2023 20:18:43 GMT
Humans exploit each other to build the world, then openly destroy each other now and then over who gets to control it. Finally, they breed more humans to follow that same cycle over and over again. Crazy.
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Post by Snow White on Oct 10, 2023 20:25:38 GMT
So are Hamas a terrorist organisation? Yes, it is. At this point in history it's difficult to discern which side is right when both parties have told lies and encouraged propaganda. What I am certain is that it's quite disgusting and appalling to see people celebrating crimes against humanity and innocent animals to support the Palestinians' cause. I've seen videos of the israeli's army not being better than Hamas but Hamas' brutality and barbarism has even surpassed ISIS. The latter terrorist group hasn't beheaded babies or children.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 10, 2023 21:52:01 GMT
So are Hamas a terrorist organisation? Oh, very much so, yes! Most countries consider Hamas to be terrorists. Some don't - Russia and Iran won't surprise anyone. Another BBC explainer about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict published in 2019 but updated just 8 hours ago: www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396
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Post by pg13 on Oct 10, 2023 23:14:27 GMT
A video I saw this morning will stay with me forever. I watched it twice before I realised the context, as it wasn't labelled. No words, really. Christ! Sorry you saw that inadvertently this morning. Jesus.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 10, 2023 23:18:22 GMT
Similar to claims of false flags or the US let Al-Quaida attack, I've seen the same kind of thing towards Israel. People just can't understand that intelligence is not straightforward or infallible!
Simply apply the expanded Hanlon's Razor:
People commonly misunderstand the world of intelligence. Often, the assumption is that intelligence is always of high quality - wrong, it greatly varies from detailed information to very vague information. The other common assumption is that if an attack gets through, its deliberately allowed to happen which doesn't make much sense.
Often, contextual information is left out lest it undermine the conspiracy that intelligence allowed something to happen or to show they're incompetent. Other explanations exist such as incorrect information supplied, information not passed along the security chain, situations suddenly changed so intelligence agencies had to change plans last minute and many more possible explanations.
Intelligence and security failures can have multiple explanations as shown by the US enquiry into 9/11.
The following is an excellent point most people don't understand about intelligence:
,
And:
And:
Entirely possible for Governments to be taken by surprise by attacks.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2023 6:58:29 GMT
Respect talked earlier about how shocking it has been to see people on streets of London, New York and even Sydney celebrating Hamas' atrocities.
The Left are inconsistent, strange and will now have to perform serious mental gymnastics given their years strong identification with the Palestinians.
The political party it will be most difficult to perform mental gymnastics will be Provisional Sinn Féin who have always supported Hamas. We've already seen their politicians expressing support such as Chris Hazzard in Northern Ireland on Saturday.
This time, there will be NO escaping the reality of the international terrorist network!
Iran is right in the centre of that very network given their support for terrorist groups such as Hamas and the Provisional IRA amongst other groups.
This conflict IS going to get ugly. It will be difficult and deaths will rise, including of Israelis. I'm reading that Hamas are shocked by their own success in killing so many on Saturday and taking so many as hostages. I'm hearing from various security experts Hamas has overplayed its hand as it may well have been able to negotiate prisoner releases if they'd only taken a handful of hostages.
But the sheer scale of Saturday's atrocities means they've been too successful and brought an Israeli ground invasion right up to their door.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Oct 11, 2023 10:22:00 GMT
I'm in shock since Saturday. The way people celebrate the mass murder, rape, kidnapping of civilians, women, children at these pro-Palestine demonstrations. I have no words. This is what it must have been like for Jews in the 1920s, 1930s with brownshirts marching up and down the streets. There will be war crimes on both sides. Don't worry about it. Don't revel in it. Just know it. There will be slaughter to match the slaughter Hamas perpetrated. Don't be naive about the retaliation.
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Post by Russg on Oct 11, 2023 10:38:05 GMT
I'm in shock since Saturday. The way people celebrate the mass murder, rape, kidnapping of civilians, women, children at these pro-Palestine demonstrations. I have no words. This is what it must have been like for Jews in the 1920s, 1930s with brownshirts marching up and down the streets. There will be war crimes on both sides. Don't worry about it. Don't revel in it. Just know it. There will be slaughter to match the slaughter Hamas perpetrated. Don't be naive about the retaliation. I'm seeing people outraged at people supporting Israel and equally offended at public support of the Palestinians. Its hard to know whom is deserving of the West's support... I wish I understood it better.
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2023 14:56:24 GMT
There will be war crimes on both sides. Don't worry about it. Don't revel in it. Just know it. There will be slaughter to match the slaughter Hamas perpetrated. Don't be naive about the retaliation. I'm seeing people outraged at people supporting Israel and equally offended at public support of the Palestinians. Its hard to know whom is deserving of the West's support... I wish I understood it better. One of the things you need to know is that both Hamas and Fatah are armed. Fatah's armed wing is known as Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (AAMB) and the logo of Fatah features three weapons, one of which is a grenade. By our democratic standards, neither of these parties are democratic. But these are the parties Palestinians have been voting for. There's a lot of terrorist groups in Gaza and West Bank. Hamas Palestine Islamic Jihad Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade Popular Resistance Committees Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Palestine Liberation Organization Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command Harakat al-Sabireen Palestinian Liberation Front
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Post by pg13 on Oct 11, 2023 22:22:32 GMT
Some information from the US press conference tonight. I've selected the following: "The United States is ready to take action should any actor hostile to Israel consider trying to escalate or widen this war. We’re also going to continue to talk to our Israeli partners about their needs to ensure, again, that they have what they require to defend their country and their people. And that’s just not going to stop. In fact, it’s almost an hourly conversation that we’re having with our — our counterparts. Q Thank you. John, you mentioned wanting to avoid actors in the region taking advantage of this. Can you give us a sense of who you think might take advantage of this that you’re worried about? Is it — MR. KIRBY: I think there’s a unfortunately long list of actors in the region that are hostile to Israel. Hezbollah is one of them. And — and, you know, we’ve been watching with concern some of the rocket attacks that have come across the northern border of Israel from Lebanon, which obviously were coming from — from Hezbollah. So, we’re — we’re clearly concerned about that. Q Are you concerned about Iran as well? MR. KIRBY: We’re always concerned about Iran. And Iran’s hostility to Israel doesn’t need any reaffirmation by — by us. It’s — it’s out there plain to see. So, yeah, of course, we’re concerned about Iran." www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/11/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-20/
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