ChrisC
Wondering Who
Posts: 200
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Post by ChrisC on Jan 14, 2018 19:19:32 GMT
I actually find it disgusting that Janet went to that trouble to hide the fact she wasn't singing live. The level of deception is just embarassing. You seem to be very easily offended. You didn't find anything offensive about the fact that MJ assumed his fans were so stupid he didn't even bother to record new vocals? I mean he was 21 when he recorded Off The Wall! It's an insult to play the fucking cd and pretend his vocals are brand new. No, Janet did absolutely the right thing. Don't make judgements on my personality, man. It's not what I'm here for. The Off the Wall situation referenced is also quite embarassing but it's like when MJ didn't even use a microphone at VMA; I don't think it comes down how 'stupid' he thought we were, it's simply that he wasn't going to any great length to disguise his shortcoming (in this example). Going *out of your way* to trick your audience into thinking you're singing live is just so dishonest. But let me be clear, it's all bad. I wouldn't like to be drawn into a debate about who was less bad. I like artists that play live. MJ is really the only artist I am a fan of that either couldn't or chose not to for a significant part of their career.
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Post by mjjfan810 on Jan 15, 2018 16:16:44 GMT
Don't make judgements on my personality, man. It's not what I'm here for. The Off the Wall situation referenced is also quite embarassing but it's like when MJ didn't even use a microphone at VMA; I don't think it comes down how 'stupid' he thought we were, it's simply that he wasn't going to any great length to disguise his shortcoming (in this example). Going *out of your way* to trick your audience into thinking you're singing live is just so dishonest. But let me be clear, it's all bad. I wouldn't like to be drawn into a debate about who was less bad. I like artists that play live. MJ is really the only artist I am a fan of that either couldn't or chose not to for a significant part of their career. I'm not sure that it's fair to say he didn't sing live for a "significant part of his career." If we take his touring life as an adult, he did the Destiny tour, Triumph tour, Victory tour 100% live, the Bad tour 85% live, the Dangerous tour 70% live. That's the vast majority of his adult touring llfe and it was mostly completely live. It was only one tour where he relied heavily on playback. And even with TII, it appeared that he was going to be doing a lot more live singing again. With regards to the deception of JJ's "pretend-live" vocals, I agree with you that I don't think MJ was into the idea of fooling people. In the Michael Prince podcast he talks about how Kenny tried to talk MJ into re-recording some "pretend-live" vocals on the tracks he was planning to lip-synch, but MJ vetoed the idea.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 15, 2018 18:54:57 GMT
You seem to be very easily offended. You didn't find anything offensive about the fact that MJ assumed his fans were so stupid he didn't even bother to record new vocals? I mean he was 21 when he recorded Off The Wall! It's an insult to play the fucking cd and pretend his vocals are brand new. No, Janet did absolutely the right thing. Don't make judgements on my personality, man. It's not what I'm here for. The Off the Wall situation referenced is also quite embarassing but it's like when MJ didn't even use a microphone at VMA; I don't think it comes down how 'stupid' he thought we were, it's simply that he wasn't going to any great length to disguise his shortcoming (in this example). Going *out of your way* to trick your audience into thinking you're singing live is just so dishonest. But let me be clear, it's all bad. I wouldn't like to be drawn into a debate about who was less bad. I like artists that play live. MJ is really the only artist I am a fan of that either couldn't or chose not to for a significant part of their career. In relation to "making judgments on your personality", you said this to me earlier; Jan 11, 2018 18:21:15 GMT ChrisC said: "Yeah, it is simply horrifying that you think AFY is a better album than TVR." Which I'm absolutely fine with, but when I read it, it gave me the impression that you were not as sensitive as you seem to be. Ergo why I said you seemed easily offended. I mean to say you were disgusted at Janet's level of deception is a little dramatic. Theirs no one questioning your charcter, just making an observation was all. Here's the thing; when a person stands on a stage with a microphone at their mouth whilst moving their lips along to the words; their miming. Now I have no problem with anyone miming, but, you can't say it's ok for Michael Jackson to do it but not ok for anyone else to do it. And it is silly to then try to argue that there is different degrees to it, thus trying to make it into some sort of moral victory for Michael Jackson and a "disgusting deception" for Janet Jackson. That is just hypocrisy. I get that MJ's health was an issue. But what I don't know is why Janet mimed? So it would be very ignorant of me to call-out Janet for something that I don't know the reason for. Regarding the Michael Prince interview on the MJCast, what I took away from what he said in regards to MJ not recording playback was that MJ was simply lazy or couldn't be bothered, with him hoping he would be capable of doing more live vocals. And if he couldn't they would simply use the album vocals. -Hey, Michael was lazy at times like anyother human being. Shock horror. And thats fair enough and I'm fine with it. But lets just not turn this into a sort of moral spin that what MJ was really doing was being less deceiving to the fans. At the end of the day, he held a microphone to his face, constantly held his hand over his mouth when he forgot lyrics on the HIStory tour and if he was attempting to show us he really wasn't singing, then he wouldn't have done any of that. . But hey, thats cool, because for me Michael Jackson was just a person like anyone else. He didn't always get it right and thats fine.
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Post by ghost on Jan 15, 2018 19:17:19 GMT
I think All For You is the better album. I prefer Trust A Try and Son Of A Gun to anything on Invincible to be honest.
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Post by Russg on Jan 16, 2018 22:08:02 GMT
I think All For You is the better album. I prefer Trust A Try and Son Of A Gun to anything on Invincible to be honest. Seriously? Trust A Try sounds like a poor mans If with ripped off production values from Blackstreet's Fix. And Son Of A Gun is just a hot mess. I'm not the biggest Invincible fan, but those AFY songs aren't a patch on songs like YRMW, Threatened, Unbreakable or Whatever Happens.
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ChrisC
Wondering Who
Posts: 200
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Post by ChrisC on Jan 17, 2018 15:01:26 GMT
Don't make judgements on my personality, man. It's not what I'm here for. The Off the Wall situation referenced is also quite embarassing but it's like when MJ didn't even use a microphone at VMA; I don't think it comes down how 'stupid' he thought we were, it's simply that he wasn't going to any great length to disguise his shortcoming (in this example). Going *out of your way* to trick your audience into thinking you're singing live is just so dishonest. But let me be clear, it's all bad. I wouldn't like to be drawn into a debate about who was less bad. I like artists that play live. MJ is really the only artist I am a fan of that either couldn't or chose not to for a significant part of their career. In relation to "making judgments on your personality", you said this to me earlier; Jan 11, 2018 18:21:15 GMT ChrisC said: "Yeah, it is simply horrifying that you think AFY is a better album than TVR." Which I'm absolutely fine with, but when I read it, it gave me the impression that you were not as sensitive as you seem to be. Ergo why I said you seemed easily offended. I mean to say you were disgusted at Janet's level of deception is a little dramatic. Theirs no one questioning your charcter, just making an observation was all. Here's the thing; when a person stands on a stage with a microphone at their mouth whilst moving their lips along to the words; their miming. Now I have no problem with anyone miming, but, you can't say it's ok for Michael Jackson to do it but not ok for anyone else to do it. And it is silly to then try to argue that there is different degrees to it, thus trying to make it into some sort of moral victory for Michael Jackson and a "disgusting deception" for Janet Jackson. That is just hypocrisy. I get that MJ's health was an issue. But what I don't know is why Janet mimed? So it would be very ignorant of me to call-out Janet for something that I don't know the reason for. Regarding the Michael Prince interview on the MJCast, what I took away from what he said in regards to MJ not recording playback was that MJ was simply lazy or couldn't be bothered, with him hoping he would be capable of doing more live vocals. And if he couldn't they would simply use the album vocals. -Hey, Michael was lazy at times like anyother human being. Shock horror. And thats fair enough and I'm fine with it. But lets just not turn this into a sort of moral spin that what MJ was really doing was being less deceiving to the fans. At the end of the day, he held a microphone to his face, constantly held his hand over his mouth when he forgot lyrics on the HIStory tour and if he was attempting to show us he really wasn't singing, then he wouldn't have done any of that. . But hey, thats cool, because for me Michael Jackson was just a person like anyone else. He didn't always get it right and thats fine. You don't need to explain why you chose to make a poor judgement on my personality. As I said I'm not here to discuss that. You are right when you say MJ would try to cover his mouth and presented a microphone. What I'm trying to get at is the length of the deception. And covering your mouth occasionally is nowhere near setting up studio time, paying a whole bunch of money and engaging studio engineers to re-record your songs because you can't actually sing them to an audience! Lip-synching is inexcusable. No matter what. You gotta play live. If someone's trying to fool you into thinking they are, you should be very offended - in my book.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 17, 2018 16:46:34 GMT
In relation to "making judgments on your personality", you said this to me earlier; Jan 11, 2018 18:21:15 GMT ChrisC said: "Yeah, it is simply horrifying that you think AFY is a better album than TVR." Which I'm absolutely fine with, but when I read it, it gave me the impression that you were not as sensitive as you seem to be. Ergo why I said you seemed easily offended. I mean to say you were disgusted at Janet's level of deception is a little dramatic. Theirs no one questioning your charcter, just making an observation was all. Here's the thing; when a person stands on a stage with a microphone at their mouth whilst moving their lips along to the words; their miming. Now I have no problem with anyone miming, but, you can't say it's ok for Michael Jackson to do it but not ok for anyone else to do it. And it is silly to then try to argue that there is different degrees to it, thus trying to make it into some sort of moral victory for Michael Jackson and a "disgusting deception" for Janet Jackson. That is just hypocrisy. I get that MJ's health was an issue. But what I don't know is why Janet mimed? So it would be very ignorant of me to call-out Janet for something that I don't know the reason for. Regarding the Michael Prince interview on the MJCast, what I took away from what he said in regards to MJ not recording playback was that MJ was simply lazy or couldn't be bothered, with him hoping he would be capable of doing more live vocals. And if he couldn't they would simply use the album vocals. -Hey, Michael was lazy at times like anyother human being. Shock horror. And thats fair enough and I'm fine with it. But lets just not turn this into a sort of moral spin that what MJ was really doing was being less deceiving to the fans. At the end of the day, he held a microphone to his face, constantly held his hand over his mouth when he forgot lyrics on the HIStory tour and if he was attempting to show us he really wasn't singing, then he wouldn't have done any of that. . But hey, thats cool, because for me Michael Jackson was just a person like anyone else. He didn't always get it right and thats fine. You don't need to explain why you chose to make a poor judgement on my personality. As I said I'm not here to discuss that. You are right when you say MJ would try to cover his mouth and presented a microphone. What I'm trying to get at is the length of the deception. And covering your mouth occasionally is nowhere near setting up studio time, paying a whole bunch of money and engaging studio engineers to re-record your songs because you can't actually sing them to an audience! Lip-synching is inexcusable. No matter what. You gotta play live. If someone's trying to fool you into thinking they are, you should be very offended - in my book. I think lyp syncing has a place, I have zero problems with him lyp syncing one or two songs like Jam within the same era it was recorded, but at the very least he should have re-recorded vocals for playback on the HIStory tour, especially given it was 90% lyp sync, It would have made it a much better show in my honest opinion. I sort of agree with you overall though, ideally, you gotta play live.
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Post by MattyJam on Jan 18, 2018 8:52:42 GMT
You don't need to explain why you chose to make a poor judgement on my personality. As I said I'm not here to discuss that. You are right when you say MJ would try to cover his mouth and presented a microphone. What I'm trying to get at is the length of the deception. And covering your mouth occasionally is nowhere near setting up studio time, paying a whole bunch of money and engaging studio engineers to re-record your songs because you can't actually sing them to an audience! Lip-synching is inexcusable. No matter what. You gotta play live. If someone's trying to fool you into thinking they are, you should be very offended - in my book. I think lyp syncing has a place, I have zero problems with him lyp syncing one or two songs like Jam within the same era it was recorded, but at the very least he should have re-recorded vocals for playback on the HIStory tour, especially given it was 90% lyp sync, It would have made it a much better show in my honest opinion. I sort of agree with you overall though, ideally, you gotta play live. Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with aazzaabb on this one. The HIStory tour would've been a lot more interesting to watch if MJ had bothered to use pre-recorded live vocals instead of just lazily lip-synching to the vocals from the album.
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 18, 2018 9:13:47 GMT
I think lyp syncing has a place, I have zero problems with him lyp syncing one or two songs like Jam within the same era it was recorded, but at the very least he should have re-recorded vocals for playback on the HIStory tour, especially given it was 90% lyp sync, It would have made it a much better show in my honest opinion. I sort of agree with you overall though, ideally, you gotta play live. Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with aazzaabb on this one. The HIStory tour would've been a lot more interesting to watch if MJ had bothered to use pre-recorded live vocals instead of just lazily lip-synching to the vocals from the album. The odd highly-energetic song here and there is perfectly fine to be lipsync'd. I can't expect anyone to be doing such extremely difficult moves and pulling off great vocals at the same time. But then you have songs like You Are Not Alone or Stranger in Moscow where there's absolutely no way you can justify him mostly standing around, doing little and having the audacity to sing to the vocals straight off the album. It's just lazy to be frank. As for whether it's deceitful or not to lip-sync, the way I see it is that he's already 'deceiving' us (if you'd call it that) by trying to play off studio vocals as live ones - so why not just give us something new to listen to by making them something we haven't heard?
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Post by MattyJam on Jan 18, 2018 9:17:10 GMT
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with aazzaabb on this one. The HIStory tour would've been a lot more interesting to watch if MJ had bothered to use pre-recorded live vocals instead of just lazily lip-synching to the vocals from the album. The odd highly-energetic song here and there is perfectly fine to be lipsync'd. I can't expect anyone to be doing such extremely difficult moves and pulling off great vocals at the same time. But then you have songs like You Are Not Alone or Stranger in Moscow where there's absolutely no way you can justify him mostly standing around, doing little and having the audacity to sing to the vocals straight off the album. It's just lazy to be frank. As for whether it's deceitful or not to lip-sync, the way I see it is that he's already 'deceiving' us (if you'd call it that) by trying to play off studio vocals as live ones - so why not just give us something new to listen to by making them something we haven't heard? When I used the word "lazy" I was referring to his decision to lip-synch to the vocal takes from the album track. I don't think his decision to lip-synch in general was necessarily born out of laziness. It was quite clear from the little live singing he did do on the HIStory tour, that he was not up to it. He sounded horrible for the most part. I think he lip-synched more out of necessity at that time rather than laziness.
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 18, 2018 9:41:30 GMT
The odd highly-energetic song here and there is perfectly fine to be lipsync'd. I can't expect anyone to be doing such extremely difficult moves and pulling off great vocals at the same time. But then you have songs like You Are Not Alone or Stranger in Moscow where there's absolutely no way you can justify him mostly standing around, doing little and having the audacity to sing to the vocals straight off the album. It's just lazy to be frank. As for whether it's deceitful or not to lip-sync, the way I see it is that he's already 'deceiving' us (if you'd call it that) by trying to play off studio vocals as live ones - so why not just give us something new to listen to by making them something we haven't heard? When I used the word "lazy" I was referring to his decision to lip-synch to the vocal takes from the album track. I don't think his decision to lip-synch in general was necessarily born out of laziness. It was quite clear from the little live singing he did do on the HIStory tour, that he was not up to it. He sounded horrible for the most part. I think he lip-synched more out of necessity at that time rather than laziness. If I was seeing an artist of Michael's calibre, I'd expect them to be singing live during songs where they're literally doing nothing but standing around for the most part. Hell I'd expect that of every artist I see live for those songs. Maybe it wasn't laziness on his behalf but it certainly can come off like that.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 18, 2018 21:23:30 GMT
At time's I wonder if MJ was ever really fit to do the HIStory tour. Yes he completed it, but being put to sleep with propofol and sometimes literally being awoken hours before he's due on stage. His voice was gone and he seemed to be riddled with colds alot. The virus he had for the Munich show, but he seemed even poorer in other shows, like completely exhausted and dead on his feet. I wonder if that tour was too much of an undertaking.
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Post by dancingmjsdream on Jan 18, 2018 21:28:07 GMT
At time's I wonder if MJ was ever really fit to do the HIStory tour. Yes he completed it, but being put to sleep with propofol and sometimes literally being awoken hours before he's due on stage. His voice was gone and he seemed to be riddled with colds alot. The virus he had for the Munich show, but he seemed even poorer in other shows, like completely exhausted and dead on his feet. I wonder if that tour was too much of an undertaking. He looked more healthy physically imo, he was very thin in his previous tours. But you are right about the rest, he was often ill, his voice was hoarse, he was slower and didn't seem to enjoy it as much as he did only some years before... but he still put on a better show than 90% of todays' popstars imo.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 18, 2018 21:47:55 GMT
At time's I wonder if MJ was ever really fit to do the HIStory tour. Yes he completed it, but being put to sleep with propofol and sometimes literally being awoken hours before he's due on stage. His voice was gone and he seemed to be riddled with colds alot. The virus he had for the Munich show, but he seemed even poorer in other shows, like completely exhausted and dead on his feet. I wonder if that tour was too much of an undertaking. He looked more healthy physically imo, he was very thin in his previous tours. But you are right about the rest, he was often ill, his voice was hoarse, he was slower and didn't seem to enjoy it as much as he did only some years before... but he still put on a better show than 90% of todays' popstars imo. Yeah, I suppose with the Bad Tour he was 29/30 years old which is still quite young. Also on the Dangerous Tour he was 33/34 so he still had a youthful resilience that made it easier to cope with such a massive tour. I thought he looked his best during Bad up until Dangerous 92. I thought he looked exhausted on HIStory tour at times but looked quite fresh faced during the TV performances. Those 3 world tours were gruelling. Yeah he put on a better show than many of today's. They also have modern technology today and do very little besides being surrounded by teams of dancers behind them.
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Post by respect77 on Jan 19, 2018 6:23:25 GMT
I think his extreme difficulty to sleep is what he referred to when he said "I go through Hell while touring". I also think he was probably honest and it wasn't just a marketing tool whenever he said "this is going to be my last tour". I think he meant that at the time. But probably then whenever he released a new album there was pressure from the label and also from himself to promote it - and a tour is always what best promotes an album.
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