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Post by ghost on Jun 28, 2018 8:35:17 GMT
The best of what can be said has already been said, but it's important to remember that guys like Joe Jackson were pretty common 50 or 60 years ago. His model of discipline and control over his family was hardly unique for a father, especially a Black father, of the time - and neither was the drive to have a better life or to strike it rich. Just important to keep that in perspective. It seems like his sons have all been far better fathers (occasional absenteeism aside) than he was, which is incredibly positive. I don't believe for one seconds that stripping your children nude, oiling them up and beating them with ironing cords was the normal model of discipline for black fathers 60 years ago. Joseph was ritualistic in his abuse of his children and continued to value money over his children for the majority of their lives. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 10:42:43 GMT
When I think of Joe Jackson my immediate thought is of him holding a "switch" like MJ described
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Post by respect77 on Jun 28, 2018 11:10:44 GMT
The best of what can be said has already been said, but it's important to remember that guys like Joe Jackson were pretty common 50 or 60 years ago. His model of discipline and control over his family was hardly unique for a father, especially a Black father, of the time - and neither was the drive to have a better life or to strike it rich. Just important to keep that in perspective. It seems like his sons have all been far better fathers (occasional absenteeism aside) than he was, which is incredibly positive. I don't believe for one seconds that stripping your children nude, oiling them up and beating them with ironing cords was the normal model of discipline for black fathers 60 years ago. Joseph was ritualistic in his abuse of his children and continued to value money over his children for the majority of their lives. Nor does mocking your child's looks have anything to do with discipline. Nor is having sex on tour with groupies, cheating on your children's mother in full sight of your kids, then telling them "this is what you should do, boy" and expect them to cover up for daddy in front of their mother discipline. I'm sorry, but it's enough to look at the way MJ and even Janet talk about Joe to know the abuse went way beyond normal discipline. Those kids were severely traumatized by Joe even as adults! No normal discipline by any standard, including the standards of the 60s. That wasn't normal even back then. |
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Post by Snow White on Jun 29, 2018 1:31:21 GMT
Such bullshit just because someone died it was a good person all of a sudden. Joe may have been a better grandfather but he was a despicable husband and father to his legitimate children and that's the reason why I will never understand why Katherine never divorced him even though he continued to cheat on her when all their children were adults already. I agree with respect and ghost some of Joe's methods had nothing to do with discipline or keeping the children out of the streets. If he purposely mocked Michael's appearence destroying his self-esteem in the process and purposely used a buckle to hit him harder, he was not imposing discipline, he was a cruel sadist. Good for Paris she got to know a softer version of Joseph Jackson; however, that was not the man her father grew up with and it's frustrating some of Joe's own children, his older grandchildren and supporters in general still want to sweep the truth under the rug even if the scars he inflicted are visible dismissing the abuse and suffering Michael went through portraying it as "strict normal discipline." http://instagram.com/p/BkjBW4Zn60a |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 2:18:14 GMT
The best of what can be said has already been said, but it's important to remember that guys like Joe Jackson were pretty common 50 or 60 years ago. His model of discipline and control over his family was hardly unique for a father, especially a Black father, of the time - and neither was the drive to have a better life or to strike it rich. Just important to keep that in perspective. It seems like his sons have all been far better fathers (occasional absenteeism aside) than he was, which is incredibly positive. I don't believe for one seconds that stripping your children nude, oiling them up and beating them with ironing cords was the normal model of discipline for black fathers 60 years ago. Joseph was ritualistic in his abuse of his children and continued to value money over his children for the majority of their lives. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jun 29, 2018 2:52:59 GMT
Last night when the news here was reporting on his death, they included a snippet of an interview where Joe said to Larry King that (paraphrasing) he didn't regret treating them the way he did because 'look at where they ended up'. It's a shame he didn't at the very least come to accept his ways were over the top and regret them. You can't change the past but accepting you did wrong is at least a step in the right direction.
His abusive behaviour might've instilled the hard workmanship that Michael needed to make it to the top, but it is evidently not the only way to instil it in someone - see the countless other successful world famous musicians many of whom have very strong work ethics). Michael Jackson was someone who had enough raw talent that, while yes it needed to be nurtured, would've been enough to get him to the top via other, less abusive paths. Sure, we might not have ended up with the albums exactly as they are now, but I have no doubt that he would've still made some exceptional albums.
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Post by Snow White on Jun 29, 2018 3:18:05 GMT
I don't believe for one seconds that stripping your children nude, oiling them up and beating them with ironing cords was the normal model of discipline for black fathers 60 years ago. Joseph was ritualistic in his abuse of his children and continued to value money over his children for the majority of their lives. Michael himself said it, respect posted this video in the previous page. He said Joe would oil him down before hitting him with a cord, the audio came from the rabbi tapes. If some people still justify this atrocity as "old school discipline" or think Michael lied for them to defend Joe, they have no sympathy or empathy for Michael. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jun 29, 2018 3:41:00 GMT
What would oiling achieve?
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Post by respect77 on Jun 29, 2018 4:02:05 GMT
What would oiling achieve? I guess to slip down the belt and don't leave marks? Just a guess. I don't know. Maybe it was just a ritual to make them even more scared. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 11:55:52 GMT
I don't trust anything Rabbi Schmuley Boteach has to say, that crazed clown tried to brainwash and hypnotize Michael and fill his head with all sorts of crazy shit. I read his book and it was complete hogwash, I think Darwen Porters was better.
Back on topic, people keep talking all this mess about Joe, I won't deny it happened but he did good things too and it is not nice to talk ill of the dead. the man has passed away, please let us show him a bit of respect for a while at least. I know for a fact even Michael would not want us talking all this shit about Joe.
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rhilo
Wondering Who
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Post by rhilo on Jun 29, 2018 14:34:30 GMT
I don't trust anything Rabbi Schmuley Boteach has to say, that crazed clown tried to brainwash and hypnotize Michael and fill his head with all sorts of crazy shit. I read his book and it was complete hogwash, I think Darwen Porters was better.
Back on topic, people keep talking all this mess about Joe, I won't deny it happened but he did good things too and it is not nice to talk ill of the dead. the man has passed away, please let us show him a bit of respect for a while at least. I know for a fact even Michael would not want us talking all this shit about Joe. Those are Michael's own words -it's on record and the audio is available. When those convos were made public in 2009, I was pretty shocked to hear Michael say that. It was sadistic to say the least. |
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Post by respect77 on Jun 29, 2018 15:28:31 GMT
MJ didn't need the rabbi to say those things. He's been saying them for years and decades. I think the first instance of a tape where he talks about his childhood abuse were these so called "Neverland tapes". If I remember it correctly these were made when they were working on his autobiography. (Ignore the News of the World captions.)
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Post by respect77 on Jun 29, 2018 18:55:22 GMT
http://instagr.am/p/Bknfd_qFRVG SMH, I am so disappointed in Prince now. This is probably what the family has been feeding him with in the past years, but it is still disappointing to see him rehash this revisionits bullcrap. I don't know why the family still wants to keep up this long broken facade. It's just so ridiculous now. And saying that Joe raised them right. This coming from someone who was never hit in his life because his dad didn't believe in that. But apparently Joe's methods were right. SMH Prince. You need to learn a little bit about your daddy. |
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Post by mjjfan810 on Jun 29, 2018 21:04:22 GMT
I'm so glad I didn't have things like Instagram when I was a kid to embarrass myself like this in public. Prince is still a young kid, and I guess his immaturity is showing through. Both Prince and Paris come across as very emotionally immature the older they get, which probably stems from not having a stable parental figure to guide them through their teenage years. Unfortunately, once they inherit their daddy's money, I have a feeling they are going to have to learn the hard way about the true nature and intentions of many in the Jackson clan.
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Post by respect77 on Jun 29, 2018 21:24:05 GMT
He is basically echoing the Jacksons party line. See here at 1:18. Fans should send him some of these videos to see it for himself. http://instagr.am/p/BjNQHZzlbLo Even in 1988 while they were working on his autobiography he is like: "... to the point where I would say abused. Please don't write that!" And I don't think it was in his autobiography eventually. @1:04 He was so scared of Joseph even then. It took until the 1993 Oprah interview until he could openly talk about it in public and even then he was worried about what Joseph's reaction would be and he kept apologizing to Joseph for telling the truth about him! Talk about a classic case of Stockholm syndrome. But at least MJ broke out of it. Much of the family had it all their lives, staying in denial about the abuse. Some of them accepted the BS explanations of Joe (at least publicly) that they were somehow deserving of it and that it was somehow great parenting because they didn't end up in jail. As if that is the only way to achieve that. Prince should stick to talking about his own positive experiences with his grandfather then and not being in denial about father's experiences. Prince calls Joseph grandaddy, while Michael wasn't even allowed to call him dad. At the very least that should be a reminder to him that his relationship with Joe might have been very different to that of his father's. |
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