Well I have a hard time believing John Barnes or any of these people would just let Michael take the credit for no reason.
I mean as much as people make up absolute lies and bullshit about Michael, and profit from it and get away with it.
There's no way these people would just let him do this and not say anything.
There is more to the story.
I read somewhere that Michael did some unaccredited work with Greg on Greg's own album. (which makes Greg's whining about the 15 seconds even more shady and suspect)
Perhaps he and John Barnes had a similar quid pro quo going on.
Fact is John Barnes never said anything about it when he was alive, so I don't know why you're offended on his behalf.
Obviously the way artists negotiate song writing credits is not always cut and dry, hence Teddy getting credit for Dangerous when according to Michael in that same deposition you keep posting about, He wrote Dangerous himself and teddy had nothing to do with it.
Michael did a lot of stuff for others that unaccredited received nothing in return. He also gave people credit on some of his songs that they didn't earn. But no one ever mentions that.
Clearly John Barnes had some type of agreement in place in regards to centipede, so why dwell in it?
I guess what I'm saying is, you shouldn't judge since you don't know how Michael and his associates operated.
None of these people complaining now get my support. Because again, they waited until the man was dead to make these claims. If they didn't have something to claim before he died, they should shut up.
Ah, there it is! The Shifting Goalposts Fallacy.
You’ve undermined yourself here by suddenly dropping your previous assertion for a new one.
Let's have a look at some of your assertions there:
"Well I have a hard time believing John Barnes or any of these people would just let Michael take the credit for no reason."False Dilemma Fallacy here. Like I said to you before, anything you say without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
So, that one can go too.
"I mean as much as people make up absolute lies and bullshit about Michael, and profit from it and get away with it.",
Irrelevant to your original contestation vis a vis John Barnes who, I might remind you, is not one of those individuals who "make up absolute lies and bullshit.....and profit from it".
"There's no way these people would just let him do this and not say anything."False Dilemma Fallacy again.
"There is more to the story."Given your previous lines, you're attempting to speak in general here rather than being specific about John Barnes. Nevertheless, this is certainly true as regards Centipede and John Barnes.
Hence why I literally pointed out the discrepancy between Centipede liner notes and Michael's testimony under oath in 1993. This is a fact and it's good to see you now accept this since it was clear you previously weren't.
"I read somewhere that Michael did some unaccredited work with Greg on Greg's own album. (which makes Greg's whining about the 15 seconds even more shady and suspect)...."Well, that's irrelevant to Centipede and John Barnes.
What you said about Phillinganes....it's very obvious you didn't bother to read the full extent of what he said during his Red Bull Academy interview in 2016. Or the context of.
I suggest you do so because you have mischaracterised it as "Greg's whining". Once you do, you'll realise Greg isn't being shady or suspect here.
What's that thing I said about you having zero evidence for things? Oh yes....we can dismiss it without any too.
"Perhaps he and John Barnes had a similar quid pro quo going on."Speculation which once again means we can dismiss you here on account of zero evidence.
"Fact is John Barnes never said anything about it when he was alive, so I don't know why you're offended on his behalf."Unpack this "fact" of yours and how you came to the conclusion it's a fact. Hint: it calls for some kind of evidence.
Oh, and I'm not offended. But I did state a fact that simply adds to the point of the thread. And that fact is already supported by evidence.
"Obviously the way artists negotiate song writing credits is not always cut and dry, hence Teddy getting credit for Dangerous when according to Michael in that same deposition you keep posting about, He wrote Dangerous himself and teddy had nothing to do with it."Teddy and Dangerous is irrelevant to the example of John Barnes and Centipede. They aren't even same situations here and, as such, should really be judged on their own separate merits.
Oh, and Michael didn't write Dangerous entirely. You've left out Bill Bottrell....tut, tut! Teddy's work on Dangerous was not exactly insignificant either.
"Michael did a lot of stuff for others that unaccredited received nothing in return. "Again, this is irrelevant to John Barnes and Centipede. Michael was in a position of power within the industry and if he chose to do things without wanting credit, then he did it because he wanted to do so.
This does not actually help whatever point you're trying to make.
"He also gave people credit on some of his songs that they didn't earn. But no one ever mentions that."Two things to say - statements like this require examples. Secondly, it's also irrelevant to the single issue you're trying to debate with me on - John Barnes and Centipede.
"Clearly John Barnes had some type of agreement in place in regards to centipede, so why dwell in it?"On the contrary, it's NOT clear which is why we only know of two undisputed facts:
1) Liner notes credits Michael Jackson alone with being the composer of Centipede.
2) Under oath in a deposition in Mexico, Michael Jackson corrected himself to confirm Centipede was co-written with John Barnes.
Anything else is unsubstantiated speculation, including your "they must have had an agreement". We do not know that nor do we have a sliver of evidence for it in this specific case.
So, you DO now accept John Barnes co-wrote Centipede. Great!
"I guess what I'm saying is, you shouldn't judge since you don't know how Michael and his associates operated."Stating a fact and backing it up is hardly judging others. Perhaps you should be taking your own advice?
But we do know how Michael and several of his associates operated with varying degrees of evidence. This is literally irrelevant to your original assertion vis a vis John Barnes and Centipede.
"None of these people complaining now get my support. Because again, they waited until the man was dead to make these claims. If they didn't have something to claim before he died, they should shut up."Each case is separate and should be treated as such. The example of John Barnes and Greg Phillinganes is demonstrably not the same as Brad Buxer's example. Barnes and Phillinganes cannot be said to have been inconsistent or disrespectful by any means.
Unfortunately, Buxer's story does seem inconsistent and only appeared post-2009. Again though....Buxer cannot be lumped in with those "people make up absolute lies and bullshit about Michael, and profit from it and get away with it." He hasn't done that by any means!
You need to take a step back and really digest their actual words. Especially Phillinganes whom you reduced to "whining" - if you pay attention to what he said in total, he certainly wasn't whining. But imparting a story with a moral lesson and industry lesson for the young hopefuls he was speaking to who are in the early stages of their music careers. Patience, basically.
Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
