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Post by Russg on Mar 12, 2020 6:39:28 GMT
What are your thoughts on this? We know for a fact that he did this a lot on Invincible. A demo surfaced of Whatever Happens with another vocalist and it is evident that MJ heard it, recorded his own vocal and added his name to the songwriting credit. He did the same with 2000 Watts and Shout (interestingly enough, the Nick Carter version of Shout doesn't feature MJ on songwriting credits... suspicious much?).
And it wasn't just Invincible, wasn't it Brad Buxer who claimed that he wrote most of Stranger In Moscow but never received a songwriting credit?
Does this practise bother you and does it make you think less of MJs artistry?
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Post by WildStyle on Mar 12, 2020 6:42:45 GMT
What are your thoughts on this? We know for a fact that he did this a lot on Invincible. A demo surfaced of Whatever Happens with another vocalist and it is evident that MJ heard it, recorded his own vocal and added his name to the songwriting credit. He did the same with 2000 Watts and Shout (interestingly enough, the Nick Carter version of Shout doesn't feature MJ on songwriting credits... suspicious much?). And it wasn't just Invincible, wasn't it Brad Buxer who claimed that he wrote most of Stranger In Moscow but never received a songwriting credit? Does this practise bother you and does it make you think less of MJs artistry? It seemed to happen on Invincible for whatever reason, but Brad Buxer did not write most of SIM. He came up with the chord progression and MJ wrote the vocal melody and the lyrics. But yes, Buxer should have been given a writing credit along with MJ. No it doesn't bother me because it seems to be an issue that cropped up only on Invincible and we don't know the reason why. |
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Post by respect77 on Mar 12, 2020 7:16:09 GMT
Yawn. The Stranger on Moscow thing has been discussed to death. To say Brad wrote most of it sounds like a exaggeration (MJ wrote the melody and lyrics, that is already more than half of it), but yes he should have been credited. But a lot of artists have things like this in their history from Prince to Miles Davis to Mozart, yet no one thinks any less of them artistically.
I feel like this topic is as much of a dead horse as the lip synching topic. MJ wrote enough great songs on his own (most of his best songs) to prove he was a great songwriter. Who cares if he didn't write freaking generic songs like Shout and 2009 Watts when the dude wrote Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal and Who Is It and Earth Song etc? At most you could question him ethically for it, but definitely not artistically.
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Post by Russg on Mar 12, 2020 7:35:05 GMT
Yawn. The Stranger on Moscow thing has been discussed to death. To say Brad wrote most of it sounds like a exaggeration (MJ wrote the melody and lyrics, that is already more than half of it), but yes he should have been credited. But a lot of artists have things like this in their history from Prince to Miles Davis to Mozart, yet no one thinks any less of them artistically. I feel like this topic is as much of a dead horse as the lip synching topic. MJ wrote enough great songs on his own (most of his best songs) to prove he was a great songwriter. Who cares if he didn't write freaking generic songs like Shout and 2009 Watts when the dude wrote Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal and Who Is It and Earth Song etc? At most you could question him ethically for it, but definitely not artistically. The quality of the songs is a moot point. It's the fact that he credited himself on those songs, without having written a word. It is definitely ethically questionable. |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Mar 12, 2020 7:40:20 GMT
I care about the lip syncing quite a bit.
I don't really care about this as a percentage of his canon it's tiny.
And nowadays it's a very standard practice 'change a word, claim a third'.
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Post by MattyJam on Mar 12, 2020 9:16:23 GMT
I ain't gonna lose no sleep over MJ claiming a handful of writing credits rightly or wrongly, when he's more than proven himself as an incredible songwriter in the past. Even on Invincible, two of the albums best tracks were the ones where he was the sole songwriter (Speechless and TLC).
You get plenty of artists like Beyonce, Madonna, Janet, Gaga, Timberlake, The Weeknd etc, who've never written a song without a co-writer, MJ is one of the few pop artists I can think of who was solely responsible for writing many of his biggest hits and most popular fan favorites. Infact, Prince is the only other pop artist I can think of who can claim this.
Not only that, he often brought so much to the songs he didn't write by virtue of his incredible vocal deliveries, that a case could definitely be made that songs like MITM, Whatever Happens, YANA and Rock With You wouldn't have been half as good if they were given to another artist. Glenn Ballard himself acknowledged this recently whilst discussing MITM.
You refer to the Whatever Happens demo, but I've heard that, and whilst it is indeed highly questionable as to whether MJ deserved a writing credit on the song, the original demo version is decidedly average compared to the version on Invincible, with MJs epic vocal performance, which arguably makes the song.
You can't detract the importance of a world class singer in how successful a song is. Would I Will Always Love You have been such a massive iconic hit if it was sung by Britney Spears instead of Whitney? Doubtful. I'm not saying Whitney deserved a songwriting credit for it, but you have to give credit for what an incredible singer brings to the table on a song.
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Post by respect77 on Mar 12, 2020 9:52:02 GMT
Yawn. The Stranger on Moscow thing has been discussed to death. To say Brad wrote most of it sounds like a exaggeration (MJ wrote the melody and lyrics, that is already more than half of it), but yes he should have been credited. But a lot of artists have things like this in their history from Prince to Miles Davis to Mozart, yet no one thinks any less of them artistically. I feel like this topic is as much of a dead horse as the lip synching topic. MJ wrote enough great songs on his own (most of his best songs) to prove he was a great songwriter. Who cares if he didn't write freaking generic songs like Shout and 2009 Watts when the dude wrote Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal and Who Is It and Earth Song etc? At most you could question him ethically for it, but definitely not artistically. The quality of the songs is a moot point. It's the fact that he credited himself on those songs, without having written a word. It is definitely ethically questionable. You asked whether we think of MJ less artistically,not ethnically. Why would we? It's not like songs like Shout and 2000 Watts made him as an artist. It's not like he didn't prove he could write great songs. Question those artistically who do this through their whole catalog. As for ethics, it questionable but by far not unique. In fact, it happens a lot in music. Eg. And this on the album that actually did make Miles Davis (Kind of Blue). |
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Post by HIStoric on Mar 12, 2020 10:01:36 GMT
You get plenty of artists like Beyonce, Madonna, Janet, Gaga, Timberlake, The Weeknd etc, who've never written a song without a co-writer Lady Gaga and Madonna do have some songs credited solely to themselves, plus Janet wrote Black Cat as well. Granted I'm just pointing out technicalities with an absolute statement; I do agree that Michael has solely written a lot more of his biggest hits than many pop artists including these.
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Post by HIStoric on Mar 12, 2020 10:30:25 GMT
He did the same with 2000 Watts and Shout (interestingly enough, the Nick Carter version of Shout doesn't feature MJ on songwriting credits... suspicious much?). Shout is a weird thing. The credits I saw online for Nick Carter's version do not match the credits for Michael's version - as in, any name. And neither of them credit the Isley Brothers as songwriters, who wrote the chorus on the rock'n'roll classic, of which they both sample. Still, if the label signed that off and the Isley Brothers never kicked up a stink, something must've been agreed on privately. It's incredibly uncommon though.
As for the songs on Invincible, it's likely something in the agreement where if you let Michael Jackson sing your song, you hand over partial publishing rights. That was similarly the case with Colonel Parker, who would force songwriters to give up at least half the publishing rights to him and Elvis for any song Elvis would sing on. The only song on Invincible that lacks MJ's songwriting credit is Cry, but that was written by R Kelly. I imagine him being a big enough star and having collaborated enough with MJ in the past gave him the influence to demand a solo credit.
To answer your question, I do agree that Michael should give credit when someone has helped write a song (as seems to be the case with Stranger in Moscow) because that's the right thing to do and well, it's a dick move not to. It doesn't make me think less of MJ's artistry though because it's such a minuscule portion of his discography. Just like how I don't think any less of MJ's artistry just because the intro and bassline for Billie Jean is essentially that of "I Can't Go for That (No Can Do)" by Daryl Hall and John Oates. Reason being the absolute vast majority of his solo catalogue is original creative material, plus I've found many artists have at least one or two songs where this kinda thing happens. Even Daryl Hall himself said it's "something [they] all do". |
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Post by bedroom on Mar 12, 2020 11:11:33 GMT
I think by the time Invincible was released it was common practice to "change a word and get a 3rd" as Tony puts it. So while I think it's ethically questionable you can't single out MJ on this issue. Was just sign o' the times.
Do you remember the Shakira and Beyonce duet? "Beautiful Liar". It wouldn't surprise me if Beyonce only added the "Ah beyonce beyonce, ah shakira shakira" part to get a writing credit. And even that's questionable. Shakira writes (used to write) most of her songs with her guitarist.
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Post by WildStyle on Mar 12, 2020 11:26:24 GMT
I'm not sure how many songs MJ was writing in that period. Presumably not that many. With MJ possibly having cash issues at the time it was probably seen as a smart thing to do at the time by either Michael or someone representing him.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486
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Post by TonyR on Mar 12, 2020 11:26:35 GMT
I'm still not joking when I say that I think MJ got the Whatever Happens credit for the 'He's Working Day and Night' line.
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Post by WildStyle on Mar 12, 2020 11:37:20 GMT
I'm still not joking when I say that I think MJ got the Whatever Happens credit for the 'He's Working Day and Night' line. He also wrote "Thank You Carlos" 😆 |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486
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Post by TonyR on Mar 12, 2020 11:47:59 GMT
I'm still not joking when I say that I think MJ got the Whatever Happens credit for the 'He's Working Day and Night' line. He also wrote "Thank You Carlos" 😆 Looking forward to the summer....  |
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Post by pg13 on Mar 12, 2020 13:43:55 GMT
Liner notes for Centipede credits the song solely to Michael Jackson.
In the Mexico deposition, Michael stated he co-wrote it with John Barnes. Initially, MJ said he wrote it himself. I reckon MJ corrected himself to avoid a "Gotcha!" moment during the case as the lawyer questioning him was waiting for him to trip himself up over certain songs.
John Barnes has seen the question from me over this, but has declined to answer it. I get the impression some sort of power struggle went on with this one and MJ ultimately got his way.
Still, we don't have the full story so far.
John Robinson came up with the drums on Smooth Criminal. All MJ and Quincy had for him was a bass line for him to play along to.
The DSTYGE case with MJ and Phillinganes is interesting too.
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