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Post by respect77 on Oct 30, 2023 2:56:33 GMT
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Post by respect77 on Oct 30, 2023 3:20:54 GMT
To the original question of this thread, ie. what it this is about. I know the West loves to ignore this, but you will never understand this conflict by ignoring or minimizing its most important dimension and driving force: the religious one. Just because the West is post-religion, it doesn't mean religion is not a lot more important (all important) in other cultures.
Imagine that "progressive" Westerners call these Islamist, Jihadist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah, that have genocide as a goal in their charter, "progressive, that are part of the Global Left". Well, they do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 8:32:35 GMT
Oof. Heard an interview on the radio of a health worker in Gaza and it was pretty devastating. I never realised MJ wrote a poem about Palestine in 1993 also.   See the plains Of the days of old Just a century ago When stories of peace were told. Of how Gallilie (sic) ran through The Jordan River. What remains are cold Tales of war, Of the death and dying Bomb shells are flying Bodies multiplying, See the children crying. What are they fighting for? I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, I will carry you, oh, Palestine, Palestine. Palestine Come deep in My heart. I’ll always love you. Palestine, don’t cry, I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, Oh, Palestine. God’s a place for you Oh, Palestine. And, I believe in you. Oh, Palestine, I will die for you. |
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Post by respect77 on Oct 30, 2023 10:03:46 GMT
Yep. I have seen fans circulate this poem as proof that MJ was an anti-Zionist or that he took a side in this conflict. While ignoring that MJ also said he loved Israel. He met with the Israeli army. (Same year as he wrote the poem.) Waved an Israeli flag.  Met with Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 10:39:18 GMT
Yep. I have seen fans circulate this poem as proof that MJ was an anti-Zionist or that he took a side in this conflict. While ignoring that MJ also said he loved Israel. He met with the Israeli army. (Same year as he wrote the poem.) Waved an Israeli flag. Met with Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon. Yeah, lots of MJ fans are idiots unfortunately. Without even needing to take sides I just think it's a nice poem for the people of Palestine and can't help but think of the innocent people killed, trapped and dying caught up in all of this when I read it. |
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Post by respect77 on Oct 30, 2023 16:32:08 GMT
First Israeli hostage rescued by the IDF.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 1, 2023 13:12:57 GMT
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Post by MattyJam on Nov 1, 2023 16:53:52 GMT
Deleted a few posts. Lets keep this thread on topic please.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 1, 2023 19:01:58 GMT
It's no secret by now I am of the view many, many Westerners are useful idiots as far as Hamas is concerned. Western short-sightedness over ceasefires and international aid has only served to prolong the conflict before. Wall Street Journal has an excellent article on the issue of international aid to Gaza, including Israeli aid. www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-gaza-humanitarian-aid-diverted-cf356c48Read the whole thing FREE here: www.livemint.com/special-report/how-the-west-and-israel-itself-inadvertently-funded-hamas-11697737113279.htmlWhichever way you cut, slice and dice it, for Gaza, Gazans, Israel and Israelis to have any kind of future, its imperative that Hamas is dismantled from inside Gaza. That includes wiping out Hamas members. There is no conflict in history without civilian deaths. The humane thing to do long term is wiping out Hamas. We've seen what happens when they're left to fight a rival group (PIJ), we've seen what happens when they're allowed to kick Palestinian Authority out of Gaza and poised to kick them out of West Bank also, we've seen what happens when they're left to "govern" Gaza. This is another conflict where there's no option other than to remove a terrorist fascist group from all power. It is the naive and the mad who thinks something like Northern Ireland's powersharing Agreement is suitable for Israel and Palestinian Authority territories. You cannot share power with Iran's proxy, Hamas. It would 100% be a colossal mistake for the West to send yet more international aid courtesy of their taxpayers whilst Hamas is operational in any part of Gaza. |
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Post by pg13 on Nov 1, 2023 19:29:22 GMT
Oof. Heard an interview on the radio of a health worker in Gaza and it was pretty devastating. I never realised MJ wrote a poem about Palestine in 1993 also. See the plains Of the days of old Just a century ago When stories of peace were told. Of how Gallilie (sic) ran through The Jordan River. What remains are cold Tales of war, Of the death and dying Bomb shells are flying Bodies multiplying, See the children crying. What are they fighting for? I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, I will carry you, oh, Palestine, Palestine. Palestine Come deep in My heart. I’ll always love you. Palestine, don’t cry, I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, Oh, Palestine. God’s a place for you Oh, Palestine. And, I believe in you. Oh, Palestine, I will die for you. Sold in 2010 f or $10,240. The auction notes didn't specify the year from what I can see, so I think it's purely fan speculation Michael wrote it in 1993. It reads to me that Michael is using the name "Palestine" as a regional name for the entire place as well - similar to how many still say "Ireland" as a regional name. Its easy to forget Jews referred to themselves as Palestinians pre-1948 as well. The Jerusalem Post was originally called the Palestine Post.  The British Mandate of Palestine coins also reflected Jewish Palestinian identity in addition to Arab. Naturally, the Jewish people abandoned their former Palestinian identity similarly to how we in Northern Ireland largely abandoned an Irish identity. New identities are formed out of conflict, including the former Palestinian and Irish identities which sit alongside the Israeli, British & Northern Irish identities. Conflict also strengthens each one of these. In Earth Song, he used "Holyland" as a regional name also. Similarly, Michael would quite often say "Korea" rather than South and North. I would say Michael didn't truly understand local sensitivities and certainly in the lyrical poem "Palestine" he made it clear he didn't understand what the conflict was about. At its core, the conflict is about rightful ownership of land, identity and who should govern the land. Indeed, Uri Geller had a very similar view of Michael as peacemaker to what Michael had of himself in regards to Adolf Hitler: Not very realistic since political settlements come about through continuous, protracted negotiations in tandem with a successful security process dismantling a terrorist group. Michael didn't have that kind of time nor was he a politician or politically minded. Indeed, he spoke of how he didn't believe Man could sort out global problems. Only God can. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2023 19:35:02 GMT
Oof. Heard an interview on the radio of a health worker in Gaza and it was pretty devastating. I never realised MJ wrote a poem about Palestine in 1993 also. See the plains Of the days of old Just a century ago When stories of peace were told. Of how Gallilie (sic) ran through The Jordan River. What remains are cold Tales of war, Of the death and dying Bomb shells are flying Bodies multiplying, See the children crying. What are they fighting for? I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, I will carry you, oh, Palestine, Palestine. Palestine Come deep in My heart. I’ll always love you. Palestine, don’t cry, I will pray for you, Oh, Palestine. Oh, Palestine, Oh, Palestine. God’s a place for you Oh, Palestine. And, I believe in you. Oh, Palestine, I will die for you. Sold in 2010 for $10,240. The auction notes didn't specify the year from what I can see, so I think it's purely fan speculation Michael wrote it in 1993. It reads to me that Michael is using the name "Palestine" as a regional name for the entire place as well - similar to how many still say "Ireland" as a regional name. Its easy to forget Jews referred to themselves as Palestinians pre-1948 as well. The Jerusalem Post was originally called the Palestine Post. The British Mandate of Palestine coins also reflected Jewish Palestinian identity in addition to Arab. Naturally, the Jewish people abandoned their former Palestinian identity similarly to how we in Northern Ireland largely abandoned an Irish identity. New identities are formed out of conflict, including the former Palestinian and Irish identities which sit alongside the Israeli, British & Northern Irish identities. Conflict also strengthens each one of these. In Earth Song, he used "Holyland" as a regional name also. Similarly, Michael would quite often say "Korea" rather than South and North. I would say Michael didn't truly understand local sensitivities and certainly in the lyrical poem "Palestine" he made it clear he didn't understand what the conflict was about. At its core, the conflict is about rightful ownership of land, identity and who should govern the land. Indeed, Uri Geller had a very similar view of Michael as peacemaker to what Michael had of himself in regards to Adolf Hitler: Not very realistic since political settlements come about through continuous, protracted negotiations in tandem with a successful security process dismantling a terrorist group. I don't really care if I'm honest, it just made me think of all the chikdren and people being killed in Gaza. The thread is wall to wall tweets and articles from yourself and Respect. It was just a nice poem. |
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Post by pg13 on Nov 1, 2023 19:37:34 GMT
Sold in 2010 for $10,240. The auction notes didn't specify the year from what I can see, so I think it's purely fan speculation Michael wrote it in 1993. It reads to me that Michael is using the name "Palestine" as a regional name for the entire place as well - similar to how many still say "Ireland" as a regional name. Its easy to forget Jews referred to themselves as Palestinians pre-1948 as well. The Jerusalem Post was originally called the Palestine Post. The British Mandate of Palestine coins also reflected Jewish Palestinian identity in addition to Arab. Naturally, the Jewish people abandoned their former Palestinian identity similarly to how we in Northern Ireland largely abandoned an Irish identity. New identities are formed out of conflict, including the former Palestinian and Irish identities which sit alongside the Israeli, British & Northern Irish identities. Conflict also strengthens each one of these. In Earth Song, he used "Holyland" as a regional name also. Similarly, Michael would quite often say "Korea" rather than South and North. I would say Michael didn't truly understand local sensitivities and certainly in the lyrical poem "Palestine" he made it clear he didn't understand what the conflict was about. At its core, the conflict is about rightful ownership of land, identity and who should govern the land. Indeed, Uri Geller had a very similar view of Michael as peacemaker to what Michael had of himself in regards to Adolf Hitler: Not very realistic since political settlements come about through continuous, protracted negotiations in tandem with a successful security process dismantling a terrorist group. I don't really care if I'm honest, it just made me think of all the chikdren and people being killed in Gaza. The thread is wall to wall tweets and articles from yourself and Respect. It was just a nice poem. Yeah, well this is called adding context to those words. Basically, it reflects his unifying world view....🤔 |
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 4:54:38 GMT
PG-13, re the calls for a ceasefire:
I agree. So if there's a ceasefire, then what? There was a ceasefire until October 7 and we saw what Hamas did with it. It would only allow for Hamas to be saved again, to restock weapons and start the cycle again. Maybe it's time to try something new then. I view at Hamas like a cancerous tumor that needs to be cut out, even at the price of a painful, invasive procedure. There's no other way at this point.
Unfortunately removing the Hamas tumor is just the beginning. Then you need "chemotherapy" as well, meaning that the deeper problem is that this is a highly fanatized society. Extremist religious and nationalist indoctrination is a part of life in Palestinian society from birth. Generations grew up with the idea that no coexistence can be accepted with Israel. So even if you wipe out Hamas there must be something done about this as well, otherwise Hamas (whether under the same or a different name) will reproduce itself. I have no idea how it can be done and whether the denazification of Germans after WW2 is a good example. For a start, the UN and the EU should stop negligently sponsoring Palestinian school textbooks that are full of jihadist indoctrination and then look the other way. That would be a good first step maybe. And the West should start treating Palestinian society as adults, meaning assign responsibilities to them as well, not only rights. Hold them accountable if they are failing in those responsibilities, not always only Israel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 7:29:42 GMT
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 9:34:45 GMT
She says: "All of this because of Hamas"
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Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
