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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 9:35:15 GMT
Theres no conflict in history without civilian deaths is correct. Especially when you target them. www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPointsNews/s/iW8uKIzSKIIDF did a similar interview on Irish radio yesterday that was a car crash, although more deranged and with more of those tactics used by mental US politicians we've all come to ridicule and laugh at. "We gave plenty warning." The old IRA excuse.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 9:37:31 GMT
Theres no conflict in history without civilian deaths is correct. Especially when you target them. www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPointsNews/s/iW8uKIzSKIIDF did a similar interview on Irish radio yesterday that was a car crash, although more deranged and with more of those tactics used by mental US politicians we've all come to ridicule and laugh at. "We gave plenty warning." The old IRA excuse. It's not an excuse. They did quite publicly and openly issue warnings for weeks that this was going to be an active combat zone. I wish the West would be more critical of Hamas deliberately placing its headquarters among civilians and using them as human shields instead of blaming it all on Israel. The way the West falls for this tactic every time actually encourages Hamas to continue to use civilians as human shields, because the world bashes Israel for them a lot more than them. When they realize this tactic works as a way of making the Western world to put pressure on Israel to stop the attack, they will continue to do do. The way of stopping Hamas from using people as human shields is not to reward them for it this way, but the way would be if the world make it clear that it holds THEM responsible for these deaths when they deliberately place terrorist infrastructure among civilians. THAT is the war crime.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 9:38:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 9:40:11 GMT
Theres no conflict in history without civilian deaths is correct. Especially when you target them. www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPointsNews/s/iW8uKIzSKIIDF did a similar interview on Irish radio yesterday that was a car crash, although more deranged and with more of those tactics used by mental US politicians we've all come to ridicule and laugh at. "We gave plenty warning." The old IRA excuse. IDF literally admits in both links I've shared that they were aware of how many civilians were there.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 9:53:53 GMT
IDF literally admits in both links I've shared that they were aware of how many civilians were there. The IDF also literally told them to evacuate. For weeks. When millitary/terrorists infrastructure is built around civilians areas then those areas become legitimate military targets. And it's not the war crime of the party that launches the attack but of the party who deliberately and strategically placed that infrastructure there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 10:04:42 GMT
IDF literally admits in both links I've shared that they were aware of how many civilians were there. The IDF also literally told them to evacuate. For weeks. When millitary/terrorists infrastructure is built around civilians areas then those areas become legitimate military targets. And it's not the war crime of the party that launches the attack but of the party who deliberately and strategically placed that infrastructure there. Yes. As I say, the old IRA "we gave warning" tactic. It's clear that you and PG13 are just going to jump on any post that shows empathy towards innocent Palestinians or throws any criticism towards the IDF/Israel and how their attacks are being operated. I'm far from a "Free Palestine" person but the two of you should relax.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 10:26:19 GMT
The IDF also literally told them to evacuate. For weeks. When millitary/terrorists infrastructure is built around civilians areas then those areas become legitimate military targets. And it's not the war crime of the party that launches the attack but of the party who deliberately and strategically placed that infrastructure there. Yes. As I say, the old IRA "we gave warning" tactic. It's clear that you and PG13 are just going to jump on any post that shows empathy towards innocent Palestinians or throws any criticism towards the IDF/Israel and how their attacks are being operated. I'm far from a "Free Palestine" person but the two of you should relax. No one is saying you shouldn't have empathy towards innocent Palestinians. All I'm saying is that the blame for this suffering is largely misplaced when people bash Israel for it 99 percent of the time. It's Hamas who initiated this war. Knowing that it leaves Israel no choice but to respond heavy handedly. It's Hamas who uses its own civilians as human shields. It's Hamas who deliberately places terrorist infrastructure in hospitals, "refugee camps" (the quotation marks are because Jabalia is a "refugee camp" only in name) etc. Making them legitimate targets by that. "All this because of Hamas" When the allies bombed Berlin to the ground in 1945, including civilians, including children, those casualties are on Nazi Germany's hands even if the the direct cause of those deaths were the bombs of the Allies. What "you two should relax" mean? Stop expressing our opinions because it annoys you? Well, you can post yours. I'm going to continue to express mine.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 10:51:35 GMT
But okay. Let's say Israel is all wrong in how it wages this war. I'd like to see suggestions about what would be a better way. A way that avoids civilian deaths, but is also effective in achieving the military target of eradicating Hamas. That while Hamas entrenches itself in densely populated civilian areas and uses civilians as human shields. So, any solutions to this problem?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 11:11:21 GMT
Yes. As I say, the old IRA "we gave warning" tactic. It's clear that you and PG13 are just going to jump on any post that shows empathy towards innocent Palestinians or throws any criticism towards the IDF/Israel and how their attacks are being operated. I'm far from a "Free Palestine" person but the two of you should relax. No one is saying you shouldn't have empathy towards innocent Palestinians. All I'm saying is that the blame for this suffering is largely misplaced when people bash Israel for it 99 percent of the time. It's Hamas who initiated this war. Knowing that it leaves Israel no choice but to respond heavy handedly. It's Hamas who uses its own civilians as human shields. It's Hamas who deliberately places terrorist infrastructure in hospitals, "refugee camps" (the quotation marks are because Jabalia is a "refugee camp" only in name) etc. Making them legitimate targets by that. "All this because of Hamas" When the allies bombed Berlin to the ground in 1945, including civilians, including children, those casualties are on Nazi Germany's hands even if the the direct cause of those deaths were the bombs of the Allies. What "you two should relax" mean? Stop expressing our opinions because it annoys you? Well, you can post yours. I'm going to continue to express mine. Your opinion doesn't annoy me at all, but the lack of empathy shown in the thread disappoints me.
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Post by respect77 on Nov 2, 2023 17:55:02 GMT
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Post by respect77 on Nov 3, 2023 8:09:52 GMT
Anywhere Iran's proxies set their foot in that country goes to shit. Lebanon was once called the Switzerland of the Middle East. Now it's a failed state where the the government is helpless against Iran backed Islamist militants running the show and possibly dragging Lebanon into the war when Lebanon has enough problems domestically.
Also
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Post by respect77 on Nov 3, 2023 14:18:55 GMT
Anywhere Iran's proxies set their foot in that country goes to shit. Lebanon was once called the Switzerland of the Middle East. Now it's a failed state where the the government is helpless against Iran backed Islamist militants running the show and possibly dragging Lebanon into the war when Lebanon has enough problems domestically. So the much hyped Nasrallah speech fell flat. (In several Arab countries there were huge screening parties.) It must be disappointing for Hamas fans. For everyone else it's good news that it doesn't seem the situation will escalate on the North for now. (That doesn't mean Hezbollah won't keep shooting some rockets, as they do now, but it seems they won't do much more.)
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Post by respect77 on Nov 3, 2023 15:48:53 GMT
Hamas murders Palestinians for trying to move south. But no doubt this too will be counted into the civilian deaths Israel killed.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 4, 2023 10:03:05 GMT
PG-13, re the calls for a ceasefire: I agree. So if there's a ceasefire, then what? There was a ceasefire until October 7 and we saw what Hamas did with it. It would only allow for Hamas to be saved again, to restock weapons and start the cycle again. Maybe it's time to try something new then. I view at Hamas like a cancerous tumor that needs to be cut out, even at the price of a painful, invasive procedure. There's no other way at this point. Unfortunately removing the Hamas tumor is just the beginning. Then you need "chemotherapy" as well, meaning that the deeper problem is that this is a highly fanatized society. Extremist religious and nationalist indoctrination is a part of life in Palestinian society from birth. Generations grew up with the idea that no coexistence can be accepted with Israel. So even if you wipe out Hamas there must be something done about this as well, otherwise Hamas (whether under the same or a different name) will reproduce itself. I have no idea how it can be done and whether the denazification of Germans after WW2 is a good example. For a start, the UN and the EU should stop negligently sponsoring Palestinian school textbooks that are full of jihadist indoctrination and then look the other way. That would be a good first step maybe. And the West should start treating Palestinian society as adults, meaning assign responsibilities to them as well, not only rights. Hold them accountable if they are failing in those responsibilities, not always only Israel. I think viewing Hamas as like a cancerous tumour is a good way of putting it. Sometimes painful invasive surgery is required and follow up chemotherapy to remove it successfully. I echo your point too about rights as well as responsibilities. In Northern Ireland, we had John Hume, a Nationalist leader, challenging Nationalist and Republican dogma where he said they loudly proclaimed their rights but were absolutely silent about their responsibilities to Northern Ireland's society. And the reason they were silent about their responsibilities towards the emergence of normal politics was because they wanted Northern Ireland destroyed. Similarly, Palestinian leaders have long been loud about their rights but absolutely silent on their responsibilities to society. The songs, ballads and so on Hume noted had to be firmly rejected by Nationalists and Republicans because those perpetuate the problem by glorifying violence against the Unionist population. Palestinians will have to do the same which is going to be difficult since Hamas indoctrinate children via cartoons, school textbooks and so on. I'll post the document from United Nations Watch later. I think the denazification of Germany is a good example as is the derepublicanisation of Provisional Sinn Fรฉin in Northern Ireland following PIRAs defeat. But what really made the difference in Europe was coal and steel for peace. What has made a difference between Israel and Jordan has been Water For Peace. This will become more important after any potential defeat of Hamas.
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Post by pg13 on Nov 4, 2023 10:08:17 GMT
No one is saying you shouldn't have empathy towards innocent Palestinians. All I'm saying is that the blame for this suffering is largely misplaced when people bash Israel for it 99 percent of the time. It's Hamas who initiated this war. Knowing that it leaves Israel no choice but to respond heavy handedly. It's Hamas who uses its own civilians as human shields. It's Hamas who deliberately places terrorist infrastructure in hospitals, "refugee camps" (the quotation marks are because Jabalia is a "refugee camp" only in name) etc. Making them legitimate targets by that. "All this because of Hamas" When the allies bombed Berlin to the ground in 1945, including civilians, including children, those casualties are on Nazi Germany's hands even if the the direct cause of those deaths were the bombs of the Allies. What "you two should relax" mean? Stop expressing our opinions because it annoys you? Well, you can post yours. I'm going to continue to express mine. Your opinion doesn't annoy me at all, but the lack of empathy shown in the thread disappoints me. I prefer to focus on things like Law Of Armed Conflict and the more practical side of how conflicts come to a resolution in discussions. Moralising rarely affects the course of conflict. I'll check out your links later on too. BTW, I'm very much relaxed and very rarely bring emotion into difficult discussions because my experience tells it that nearly always worsens relations. You have to remember my life experiences is very different to yours.
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