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Post by HIStoric on Jan 4, 2018 15:11:51 GMT
I can't speak for Russg, but I get what (s)he is saying. It's not so much isolated to this specific thread, but more so in general whenever Justin Timberlake has been brought up on MJ forums. For me, I very often see MJ fans criticising him because he hasn't pay his respects towards Michael Jackson, which isn't true because he has done so many times over the years. Sometimes some MJ fans will say "Oh he only started doing it after MJ died!" which also isn't true because I've seen footage of him praising Michael years before he died, in 2006 or so. I feel the purpose of trying to turn it into an "MJ fans' issue" is to minimize any (IMO) valid criticism towards this man as just some sort of pettiness or jealousy by MJ fans. The reality is, however, that no, it isn't only an MJ fans' issue. See the reactions to the same article on LSA, for example: www.lipstickalley.com/threads/justin-timberlake-is-rebranding-as-a-white-man.1378679/There are many similar reactions to him on Twitter as well. Whether you agree with that criticism or not is not the point here, but the point is that it is futile to act like only an MJ fans have an issue with him because it is simply not true. JT has been criticized by a wide variety of people for his disrespect towards black artists while appropriating their music and and having his white privilege, and also for his fakeness. Again, whether you personally agree or disagree with that perception of him is one thing, but this perception surely is not only MJ fans'. I never said it was only MJ fans though. I'm only bringing up something I've seen MJ fans do over and over because we're on a MJ forum - it doesn't mean I haven't seen non-MJ fans criticise him either. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 4, 2018 15:15:09 GMT
JTs recent album or the previous one has songs that pretty much sound like the Off The Wall one but he's denied ripping off Michael Jackson or acknowledge him as an influence. You're probably thinking of Take Back The Night, which I know ad-libs a line from Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground) and has that classic retro feel. Where did he deny Michael's influence though for that? |
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Post by respect77 on Jan 4, 2018 15:19:24 GMT
I feel the purpose of trying to turn it into an "MJ fans' issue" is to minimize any (IMO) valid criticism towards this man as just some sort of pettiness or jealousy by MJ fans. The reality is, however, that no, it isn't only an MJ fans' issue. See the reactions to the same article on LSA, for example: www.lipstickalley.com/threads/justin-timberlake-is-rebranding-as-a-white-man.1378679/There are many similar reactions to him on Twitter as well. Whether you agree with that criticism or not is not the point here, but the point is that it is futile to act like only an MJ fans have an issue with him because it is simply not true. JT has been criticized by a wide variety of people for his disrespect towards black artists while appropriating their music and and having his white privilege, and also for his fakeness. Again, whether you personally agree or disagree with that perception of him is one thing, but this perception surely is not only MJ fans'. I never said it was only MJ fans though. I'm only bringing up something I've seen MJ fans do over and over because we're on a MJ forum - it doesn't mean I haven't seen non-MJ fans criticise him either. I guess MJ fans can feel the same way about him as anyone else feels about him: some like him, some don't like him. How we feel about him doesn't necessarily have to do with our MJ fandom. |
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Post by Snow White on Jan 4, 2018 15:27:52 GMT
I'll pretend for a moment I'm not an MJ fan.
Appropriating black music and not acknowledging it as the influence of his work, is downright arrogant and wrong.
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 4, 2018 15:32:11 GMT
I'll pretend for a moment I'm not an MJ fan. Appropriating black music and not acknowledging it as the influence of his work, is downright arrogant and wrong. But he has. |
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Post by respect77 on Jan 4, 2018 15:37:21 GMT
I'll pretend for a moment I'm not an MJ fan. Appropriating black music and not acknowledging it as the influence of his work, is downright arrogant and wrong. But he has. Yeah, while at other times he behaved arrogantly towards people who he spent a life being inspired by (eg. that rap and so on). I don't think you have to be a Prince fan, for example, to see how utterly arrogant that is. And ridiculous too considering Prince's accomplishments and talents compared to JT's. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 4, 2018 15:56:06 GMT
Yeah, while at other times he behaved arrogantly towards people who he spent a life being inspired by (eg. that rap and so on). I don't think you have to be a Prince fan, for example, to see how utterly arrogant that is. And ridiculous too considering Prince's accomplishments and talents compared to JT's. While there is no doubting that Prince's talents and accomplishments far outweigh Justins, I don't really think that rap is as big a deal as you are making it out to be - it's pretty lightweight. To be fair though, Prince's comment that provoked the response was pretty lightweight as well. |
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Post by respect77 on Jan 4, 2018 16:33:09 GMT
Yeah, while at other times he behaved arrogantly towards people who he spent a life being inspired by (eg. that rap and so on). I don't think you have to be a Prince fan, for example, to see how utterly arrogant that is. And ridiculous too considering Prince's accomplishments and talents compared to JT's. While there is no doubting that Prince's talents and accomplishments far outweigh Justins, I don't really think that rap is as big a deal as you are making it out to be - it's pretty lightweight. To be fair though, Prince's comment that provoked the response was pretty lightweight as well. Whether you think it is not big deal it is still disrespect. Towards a man who greatly influenced JT. They are not peers in this equation. Prince's "provokation" simply does not sound as arrogant and as ridiculous as the reverse because it is Prince who is the "daddy" here and JT is the pupil. The reverse is just ridiculous IMO and disrespectful considering how much of JT's career was built on Prince. Like you said the so called "provokation" was lightweight, so it is not like JT even had to react to it. And if the first verse is about Janet then that is utterly disgusting from JT considering the Super Bowl and the treatment they got after that from the media. It's like he is taunting his white privilege in her face. Again, these may not be a big deal to you, but believe me they are to a lot of people (especially black people) and you don't have to be an MJ fan to see why. Also these small incidents that individually may not seem like "a big deal" they do accumulate to something in people's mind over time. They do accumulate to an image of a white guy who built a career on appropriating black artists while disrespecting them and who is phoney and cowardly. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 4, 2018 17:30:00 GMT
^^My main issue is when people say he's never respected the artists who influenced him, never given them credit. That is completely wrong. He's said some stupid shit mind you, but the fact he lightly disrespected Prince on one occasion doesn't completely disregard the fact JT's sung praises about him and his influence on him multiple times over the last 16 years as a solo artist. Even if it's a petty thing to be offended over, he can be offended over that and still consider the man an exceptional influence - which he evidently does. As far as I'm aware he's never disrespected Michael, and he's spoken highly of him throughout his entire solo career. I just found this 2002 interview within 30 seconds of googling (4th question), I've seen video of him praising Michael in 2006, and I've seen him praise him post-2009 many, many times. He's spoken about their influence on him, how great they are etc. In the greater scheme of things, that's more than enough praise towards his idols. So yes, for the most part, he has paid tribute to those before him and to say he doesn't is wrong. I'll definitely agree with you on the Janet verse though, upon reading that he came off like a dick who was attacking her for no reason. I'm not one to criticise him for the way the media reacted because I believe that's entirely on the media's shoulders for the outrageous way they reacted, but to kick her while she was down is unacceptable. |
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Post by MattyJam on Jan 4, 2018 17:39:40 GMT
I don't mean to come across as condescending or a music snob No offense Matty, but you've failed there.
I own all of Justin's albums and do not fit in to your demographic, as I listen to music from the 70s,80s,90s,00s and 10s.
Justin Timberlake always seems to be a contentious artist on MJ message boards, which I find odd, seeing as how he has never once slagged MJ off or said anything less than respectful towards MJ. The way MJ fans react is as if Justin should bow down in reverence to MJ at every possible opportunity. Sure, he was inspired by him, especially early on his career, and he never denied that. But he has gone on to carve out a decent career for himself in his own right and probably doesn't always want to be seen as someone who is in the shadow of MJ.
I was aware I was generalising a little, and I'm sure there are plenty of JT fans who don't fit into that demographic, but snobby or not, I stand by my assertion that a lot of his fanbase are likely made up of casual music fans who only listen to what's on the radio. There's nothing wrong with an artist who attracts that kind of audience, but they generally don't tend to attract the same kind of devoted, loyal, cultish fanbases that idols like MJ or Prince or Madonna do. I'm trying so hard here not to sound like a jumped-up music snob, but fuck it, in the words of Morrissey "we're living in terribly unsophisticated times."  JOKING... (well, half). |
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Post by mjjfan810 on Jan 10, 2018 6:10:48 GMT
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jan 10, 2018 16:34:52 GMT
Those damn white people
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,492 
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Post by TonyR on Jan 10, 2018 17:19:36 GMT
Okay, I've bitten my tongue for too long! I realise I may be on my own here but I'll take all you can throw at me!
Firstly, I'm not a big fan of JT. I only own his first album which has some great stuff on there, but I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol that MJ fans give him, and you may say it's not just MJ fans, but I can only speak of what I know.
Firstly, let me make a summary comment and one I know you'll disagree with massively but I'm sure it's true. I think you'd give him a lot more kudos & respect if he simply fawned over MJ more and made statements such as 'how great' he was and 'yeah, of course I'm inspired by him, he was the king'.
And maybe he should make more comments like that but I say this. Firstly, he has made statements over the years, not to mention the 2001 'Pop' appearance. And also, lest we forget, JT was very young 1998-2006 and will have had a team of advisors telling him what & what not to say (especially as being part of a boyband). And around that time in the US it wasn't very career friendly to say positive stuff on MJ, As terrible as that is, and as much as we'd all like to say 'Fuck anybody who tells me that, I'm going to stand up for the man', if you're trying to get a credible solo career off the ground, you wouldn't ignore them, you'd take their advice.
It's blatantly obvious that, like vast majority of all pop/r&b male artists JT is influenced by MJ (and Prince), he doesn't need to go on and on about them or refer to them everytime, he wants to make his own mark. I mean The Weeknd, Derulo & Usher it's even more obvious, but again I don't think they get grief because they've been more vocal in their love of him.
I mean, for Christ's sake, Gaga is a direct rip of Madonna and has never given her any credit.
Is JT overrated? Maybe, I don't think he's done anything great since Justified. Having said that, until Bruno Mars came along I think he was the best solo male star around for a number of years.
Since the holy trinity of Madonna, Prince & MJ I don't think we had any new superstars for at least 20 years, then when JT & Beyonce came along it seemed like the generation finally had these new huge, stadium filler artists again (and to a lesser extent now with Swift, Adele, Sheeran and it looked like Gaga too but that star seemed to have imploded). Are they as good as their 80s counterparts, no I don't think so.
Finally on this bit about JT selling out or liaisng with black people to make him look cool or trendy. That's incredibly offensive.
Madonna collaborated with Tupac, Pharrell, Nile Rogers, Babyface, Prince and many, many other black people and made R&B and Hip Hop themed music as well as pop. So have countless others. Sheeran has had number ones with Pharrell & Beyonce, or Gaga & Beyonce or Taylor Swift & Kendrick Lamar.....are these people just collaborating or making so called 'black' music to make themselves seem cool and then ditching them when they make more 'white' music.
Was MJ doing the opposite when he teamed up with Eddie Van Halen or Slash? Surely that was the exact same as what JT is being accused of? Selling out to the white audience by liaising with white rock acts.
No. Because he didn't think of music as having colour.
I know if I made music I would make the stuff that's inspired me my whole life. It would be a mix of genres and I hope I wouldn't have to think 'I best not make music that sounds this way as I may get accused of cultural appropriation'. If Justin wants to make an R&B album then a country one next then great, he should.
This is 2018 and I thought the world was a great big melting pot where we all lived together & influenced each other. Maybe not, maybe we should stick to our own?
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 10, 2018 18:08:46 GMT
^^^Fucking eh! Great post dude! I wasn't going to get involved here either but yeah, MJ fan's constantly shitting on the guy. I'm probably the same as you regarding his music although I probably like slightly more of his music. But reading the same people stating the same shit as they have on other boards over and over and over again.
Not into Filthy at all as a track mind but looking forward to hearing this new sound/album.
Edit] I don't hold him in the same regard as MJ or Prince obviously. I would have to say he's mediocre talent wise. But yeah, he's made some decent tracks.
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Post by respect77 on Jan 10, 2018 18:25:13 GMT
Again, the fallacy is here that it's MJ fans who hold these opinions of JT. It is just not true. An MJ board for other artists is a "general audience" board. We are not here because we are fans of JT so the attitudes towards him will be similar to that of the general public. Which means, OMG, not everyone will like him and there will be critcism, there will be antipathy etc. Go to LSA, for example, and see the threads on JT. Then you will see what true vitriol is. MJ forums are mild in comparation.
And I don't think people's problem with him is that he works with black producers, writers etc. That's not the issue. His critics feel that he appropriates black music. Now, of course, there can be a debate about whether that is right or wrong or what "appropriation" even means. I think the general issue his critics have is more the same kind of issue that people had with these kind of "appropriating" white artists since Elvis - that they feel that whenever a white artist takes black music he is put more on a pedestal by the media and is given privileges. And that perception was strengthened by the extreme contrast of how the media treated JT and Janet after the Super Bowl fiasco. I think much of the dislike for JT stems from that incident and those double standards. Just look at how many still bring it up when they criticize him. That's actually one of the main points that is regularly being brought up against him. Now, how the media treated them is maybe not JT's fault, but it is his fault when he then even adds insult to injury with arrogant song lyrics very likely targeted at Janet.
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JOKING... (well, half).
