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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 10, 2018 18:34:28 GMT
Again, the fallacy is here that it's MJ fans who hold these opinions of JT. It is just not true. An MJ board for other artists is a "general audience" board. We are not here because we are fans of JT so the attitudes towards him will be similar to that of the general public. Which means, OMG, not everyone will like him and there will be critcism, there will be antipathy etc. Go to LSA, for example, and see the threads on JT. Then you will see what true vitriol is. Good point, although many MJ fans ARE JT fans and it takes a certain amount of their enjoyment away when you have 3 or 4 people relentlessly posting negatively about him. The same could be said for anyone I guess. Prince.org can be venomous about everyone other than Prince at times. I just don't get though why a person would feel the need to do it constantly once they've stated their opinion. It's like if there was a fan group meeting in bar for an artist you didn't like, would you keep interrupting the group with your opinion? Hardly. Thats not aimed at you personally respect77 it's just a general point. |
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 10, 2018 18:40:26 GMT
Apart from the point TonyR is making, there does seem to be a qelective backlash mounting against Justin Timberlake. I wonder is his lyric "haters gonna say it's fake" some sort of allusion to the ongoing hate he gets thats slowly gathering steam. |
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jan 10, 2018 18:45:08 GMT
Okay, I've bitten my tongue for too long! I realise I may be on my own here but I'll take all you can throw at me!
Firstly, I'm not a big fan of JT. I only own his first album which has some great stuff on there, but I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol that MJ fans give him, and you may say it's not just MJ fans, but I can only speak of what I know.
Firstly, let me make a summary comment and one I know you'll disagree with massively but I'm sure it's true. I think you'd give him a lot more kudos & respect if he simply fawned over MJ more and made statements such as 'how great' he was and 'yeah, of course I'm inspired by him, he was the king'.
And maybe he should make more comments like that but I say this. Firstly, he has made statements over the years, not to mention the 2001 'Pop' appearance. And also, lest we forget, JT was very young 1998-2006 and will have had a team of advisors telling him what & what not to say (especially as being part of a boyband). And around that time in the US it wasn't very career friendly to say positive stuff on MJ, As terrible as that is, and as much as we'd all like to say 'Fuck anybody who tells me that, I'm going to stand up for the man', if you're trying to get a credible solo career off the ground, you wouldn't ignore them, you'd take their advice.
It's blatantly obvious that, like vast majority of all pop/r&b male artists JT is influenced by MJ (and Prince), he doesn't need to go on and on about them or refer to them everytime, he wants to make his own mark. I mean The Weeknd, Derulo & Usher it's even more obvious, but again I don't think they get grief because they've been more vocal in their love of him.
I mean, for Christ's sake, Gaga is a direct rip of Madonna and has never given her any credit.
Is JT overrated? Maybe, I don't think he's done anything great since Justified. Having said that, until Bruno Mars came along I think he was the best solo male star around for a number of years.
Since the holy trinity of Madonna, Prince & MJ I don't think we had any new superstars for at least 20 years, then when JT & Beyonce came along it seemed like the generation finally had these new huge, stadium filler artists again (and to a lesser extent now with Swift, Adele, Sheeran and it looked like Gaga too but that star seemed to have imploded). Are they as good as their 80s counterparts, no I don't think so.
Finally on this bit about JT selling out or liaisng with black people to make him look cool or trendy. That's incredibly offensive.
Madonna collaborated with Tupac, Pharrell, Nile Rogers, Babyface, Prince and many, many other black people and made R&B and Hip Hop themed music as well as pop. So have countless others. Sheeran has had number ones with Pharrell & Beyonce, or Gaga & Beyonce or Taylor Swift & Kendrick Lamar.....are these people just collaborating or making so called 'black' music to make themselves seem cool and then ditching them when they make more 'white' music.
Was MJ doing the opposite when he teamed up with Eddie Van Halen or Slash? Surely that was the exact same as what JT is being accused of? Selling out to the white audience by liaising with white rock acts.
No. Because he didn't think of music as having colour.
I know if I made music I would make the stuff that's inspired me my whole life. It would be a mix of genres and I hope I wouldn't have to think 'I best not make music that sounds this way as I may get accused of cultural appropriation'. If Justin wants to make an R&B album then a country one next then great, he should.
This is 2018 and I thought the world was a great big melting pot where we all lived together & influenced each other. Maybe not, maybe we should stick to our own?
Great Post man. |
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milo
Wondering Who
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Post by milo on Jan 10, 2018 19:15:10 GMT
Again, the fallacy is here that it's MJ fans who hold these opinions of JT. It is just not true. An MJ board for other artists is a "general audience" board. We are not here because we are fans of JT so the attitudes towards him will be similar to that of the general public. Which means, OMG, not everyone will like him and there will be critcism, there will be antipathy etc. Go to LSA, for example, and see the threads on JT. Then you will see what true vitriol is. MJ forums are mild in comparation. And I don't think people's problem with him is that he works with black producers, writers etc. That's not the issue. His critics feel that he appropriates black music. Now, of course, there can be a debate about whether that is right or wrong or what "appropriation" even means. I think the general issue his critics have is more the same kind of issue that people had with these kind of "appropriating" white artists since Elvis - that they feel that whenever a white artist takes black music he is put more on a pedestal by the media and is given privileges. And that perception was strengthened by the extreme contrast of how the media treated JT and Janet after the Super Bowl fiasco. I think much of the dislike for JT stems from that incident and those double standards. Just look at how many still bring it up when they criticize him. That's actually one of the main points that is regularly being brought up against him. Now, how the media treated them is maybe not JT's fault, but it is his fault when he then even adds insult to injury with arrogant song lyrics very likely targeted at Janet. I completely agree. Go on twitter and see how many negative reactions he got it, countless of people who aren’t MJ’s fans bringing up Janet’s situation and other general criticism. I don’t see any "vitriol" towards Justin Timberlake from MJ’s fans in particular. Some fans don’t like him but many MJ’s fans like Justin. I like some of his songs from his previous albums. The black American community has a problem with Justin because they felt he took advantage of his white privilege and left Janet out in the cold, I think they have a point. The issue of cultural appropriation is valid too because it’s unfair how people like Justin gleefully benefits of it. But it’s hard for white people to understand and empathize with issues that plagues the black community, so obviously they will dismiss the issues the black community have with Justin. |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
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Post by TonyR on Jan 10, 2018 22:27:06 GMT
Again, the fallacy is here that it's MJ fans who hold these opinions of JT. It is just not true. An MJ board for other artists is a "general audience" board. We are not here because we are fans of JT so the attitudes towards him will be similar to that of the general public. Which means, OMG, not everyone will like him and there will be critcism, there will be antipathy etc. Go to LSA, for example, and see the threads on JT. Then you will see what true vitriol is. MJ forums are mild in comparation. And I don't think people's problem with him is that he works with black producers, writers etc. That's not the issue. His critics feel that he appropriates black music. Now, of course, there can be a debate about whether that is right or wrong or what "appropriation" even means. I think the general issue his critics have is more the same kind of issue that people had with these kind of "appropriating" white artists since Elvis - that they feel that whenever a white artist takes black music he is put more on a pedestal by the media and is given privileges. And that perception was strengthened by the extreme contrast of how the media treated JT and Janet after the Super Bowl fiasco. I think much of the dislike for JT stems from that incident and those double standards. Just look at how many still bring it up when they criticize him. That's actually one of the main points that is regularly being brought up against him. Now, how the media treated them is maybe not JT's fault, but it is his fault when he then even adds insult to injury with arrogant song lyrics very likely targeted at Janet. I did say I'm sure it's not just MJ fans, but I only go on MJ forum so can only speak of these posts. However the piece I wrote is relevant to anyone, MJ fan or otherwise. |
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Post by HIStoric on Jan 11, 2018 5:47:40 GMT
Okay, I've bitten my tongue for too long! I realise I may be on my own here but I'll take all you can throw at me!
Firstly, I'm not a big fan of JT. I only own his first album which has some great stuff on there, but I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol that MJ fans give him, and you may say it's not just MJ fans, but I can only speak of what I know.
Firstly, let me make a summary comment and one I know you'll disagree with massively but I'm sure it's true. I think you'd give him a lot more kudos & respect if he simply fawned over MJ more and made statements such as 'how great' he was and 'yeah, of course I'm inspired by him, he was the king'.
And maybe he should make more comments like that but I say this. Firstly, he has made statements over the years, not to mention the 2001 'Pop' appearance. And also, lest we forget, JT was very young 1998-2006 and will have had a team of advisors telling him what & what not to say (especially as being part of a boyband). And around that time in the US it wasn't very career friendly to say positive stuff on MJ, As terrible as that is, and as much as we'd all like to say 'Fuck anybody who tells me that, I'm going to stand up for the man', if you're trying to get a credible solo career off the ground, you wouldn't ignore them, you'd take their advice.
It's blatantly obvious that, like vast majority of all pop/r&b male artists JT is influenced by MJ (and Prince), he doesn't need to go on and on about them or refer to them everytime, he wants to make his own mark. I mean The Weeknd, Derulo & Usher it's even more obvious, but again I don't think they get grief because they've been more vocal in their love of him.
I mean, for Christ's sake, Gaga is a direct rip of Madonna and has never given her any credit.
Is JT overrated? Maybe, I don't think he's done anything great since Justified. Having said that, until Bruno Mars came along I think he was the best solo male star around for a number of years.
Since the holy trinity of Madonna, Prince & MJ I don't think we had any new superstars for at least 20 years, then when JT & Beyonce came along it seemed like the generation finally had these new huge, stadium filler artists again (and to a lesser extent now with Swift, Adele, Sheeran and it looked like Gaga too but that star seemed to have imploded). Are they as good as their 80s counterparts, no I don't think so.
Finally on this bit about JT selling out or liaisng with black people to make him look cool or trendy. That's incredibly offensive.
Madonna collaborated with Tupac, Pharrell, Nile Rogers, Babyface, Prince and many, many other black people and made R&B and Hip Hop themed music as well as pop. So have countless others. Sheeran has had number ones with Pharrell & Beyonce, or Gaga & Beyonce or Taylor Swift & Kendrick Lamar.....are these people just collaborating or making so called 'black' music to make themselves seem cool and then ditching them when they make more 'white' music.
Was MJ doing the opposite when he teamed up with Eddie Van Halen or Slash? Surely that was the exact same as what JT is being accused of? Selling out to the white audience by liaising with white rock acts.
No. Because he didn't think of music as having colour.
I know if I made music I would make the stuff that's inspired me my whole life. It would be a mix of genres and I hope I wouldn't have to think 'I best not make music that sounds this way as I may get accused of cultural appropriation'. If Justin wants to make an R&B album then a country one next then great, he should.
This is 2018 and I thought the world was a great big melting pot where we all lived together & influenced each other. Maybe not, maybe we should stick to our own?
 Fucking PREACH. A truly fantastic post, Tony. |
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Post by MattyJam on Jan 11, 2018 10:45:22 GMT
Again, the fallacy is here that it's MJ fans who hold these opinions of JT. It is just not true. An MJ board for other artists is a "general audience" board. We are not here because we are fans of JT so the attitudes towards him will be similar to that of the general public. Which means, OMG, not everyone will like him and there will be critcism, there will be antipathy etc. Go to LSA, for example, and see the threads on JT. Then you will see what true vitriol is. MJ forums are mild in comparation. And I don't think people's problem with him is that he works with black producers, writers etc. That's not the issue. His critics feel that he appropriates black music. Now, of course, there can be a debate about whether that is right or wrong or what "appropriation" even means. I think the general issue his critics have is more the same kind of issue that people had with these kind of "appropriating" white artists since Elvis - that they feel that whenever a white artist takes black music he is put more on a pedestal by the media and is given privileges. And that perception was strengthened by the extreme contrast of how the media treated JT and Janet after the Super Bowl fiasco. I think much of the dislike for JT stems from that incident and those double standards. Just look at how many still bring it up when they criticize him. That's actually one of the main points that is regularly being brought up against him. Now, how the media treated them is maybe not JT's fault, but it is his fault when he then even adds insult to injury with arrogant song lyrics very likely targeted at Janet. It wasn't just the song though, it was the way he back-pedalled and left Janet to take the heat all by herself. The whole notion that it was a "wardrobe malfunction" is absurd. It was very clearly an ill-advised publicity stunt, designed to create a bit of controversy, which obviously horribly backfired, as nobody seemed to anticipate the frenzy the sight of one black nipple would cause to Middle America. Instead of admitting that he was part of a publicity stunt (HE was the one who ripped off the item of clothing, during a performance of HIS song), he played dumb and distanced himself from the whole thing. He has since acknowledged in an interview how black people are treated more harshly than their white contemporaries in the industry, and yet he was far too concerned with saving face and protecting his own image than standing up for Janet. Where was his love and respect for black culture when he stood to lose something? |
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Post by SoCav on Jan 11, 2018 11:40:33 GMT
Finally on this bit about JT selling out or liaisng with black people to make him look cool or trendy. That's incredibly offensive.
Madonna collaborated with Tupac, Pharrell, Nile Rogers, Babyface, Prince and many, many other black people and made R&B and Hip Hop themed music as well as pop. So have countless others. Sheeran has had number ones with Pharrell & Beyonce, or Gaga & Beyonce or Taylor Swift & Kendrick Lamar.....are these people just collaborating or making so called 'black' music to make themselves seem cool and then ditching them when they make more 'white' music.
Was MJ doing the opposite when he teamed up with Eddie Van Halen or Slash? Surely that was the exact same as what JT is being accused of? Selling out to the white audience by liaising with white rock acts.
No. Because he didn't think of music as having colour.
I know if I made music I would make the stuff that's inspired me my whole life. It would be a mix of genres and I hope I wouldn't have to think 'I best not make music that sounds this way as I may get accused of cultural appropriation'. If Justin wants to make an R&B album then a country one next then great, he should. I don't know enough about JT to have an opinion on him, but totally agree with this general point. The thing is that artists themselves rarely make these claims of appropriation. They just make the music they want to make, inspired by the music they love, regardless of what that may be or by whom it may have been made. Elvis is of course the most prominent example of someone who has been accused of this, he has even been called a racist as a result. When repeated often enough, those stories start to stick and most people accept them without questioning, they just repeat what they hear. Of course it is more than fair to discuss the issue of white artists becoming more notorious and famous, and put on a higher pedestal, than black artists for making the music the latter pioneered. But I do not understand why this results in attacks on those artists themselves, let alone accusations of racism. In Elvis' case, he grew up attending colored church services, which was very rare for white kids, because he was so touched by gospel music. When he became famous, he kept ignoring segregation laws by attending 'colored nights' and performing alongside black artists in Memphis. He always gave credit to those who inspired him ("A lot of people seem to think I started this business, but rock n roll was here a long time before I came along," "Let's face it: I can't sing like Fats Domino can. I know that"). When he was referred to as the King of Rock 'n Roll in 1969 at a press conference, he rejected the title and called attention to the fact that one of his inspirations, Fats Domino, was present in the room). He was loved and respected by several black contemporaries, like B. B. King, Sammy Davis Jr. and James Brown until his death (James Brown attended his funeral and recorded and released Love Me Tender as a tribute). In fact, he himself originally faced quite a lot of resistance from the establishment for making what was seen as black music as a white man. The idea that deciding to perform black music was some kind of money-making strategy is thus completely inaccurate. Of course I can see where the resentment stems from in the black community, but blaming Elvis himself for it is misplaced. He merely followed his heart musically and always spoke with nothing but respect of those who influenced and inspired him. I think the same applies to this issue in general. You can discuss the problem without attacking individual artists for making the music they love - unless you think the end goal should be for white artists to make 'white music' and black artists to make 'black music' (whatever both are supposed to mean), which I hope no one believes. |
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Post by Thriller on Jan 11, 2018 13:28:11 GMT
Okay, I've bitten my tongue for too long! I realise I may be on my own here but I'll take all you can throw at me!
Firstly, I'm not a big fan of JT. I only own his first album which has some great stuff on there, but I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol that MJ fans give him, and you may say it's not just MJ fans, but I can only speak of what I know.
Firstly, let me make a summary comment and one I know you'll disagree with massively but I'm sure it's true. I think you'd give him a lot more kudos & respect if he simply fawned over MJ more and made statements such as 'how great' he was and 'yeah, of course I'm inspired by him, he was the king'.
And maybe he should make more comments like that but I say this. Firstly, he has made statements over the years, not to mention the 2001 'Pop' appearance. And also, lest we forget, JT was very young 1998-2006 and will have had a team of advisors telling him what & what not to say (especially as being part of a boyband). And around that time in the US it wasn't very career friendly to say positive stuff on MJ, As terrible as that is, and as much as we'd all like to say 'Fuck anybody who tells me that, I'm going to stand up for the man', if you're trying to get a credible solo career off the ground, you wouldn't ignore them, you'd take their advice.
It's blatantly obvious that, like vast majority of all pop/r&b male artists JT is influenced by MJ (and Prince), he doesn't need to go on and on about them or refer to them everytime, he wants to make his own mark. I mean The Weeknd, Derulo & Usher it's even more obvious, but again I don't think they get grief because they've been more vocal in their love of him.
I mean, for Christ's sake, Gaga is a direct rip of Madonna and has never given her any credit.
Is JT overrated? Maybe, I don't think he's done anything great since Justified. Having said that, until Bruno Mars came along I think he was the best solo male star around for a number of years.
Since the holy trinity of Madonna, Prince & MJ I don't think we had any new superstars for at least 20 years, then when JT & Beyonce came along it seemed like the generation finally had these new huge, stadium filler artists again (and to a lesser extent now with Swift, Adele, Sheeran and it looked like Gaga too but that star seemed to have imploded). Are they as good as their 80s counterparts, no I don't think so.
Finally on this bit about JT selling out or liaisng with black people to make him look cool or trendy. That's incredibly offensive.
Madonna collaborated with Tupac, Pharrell, Nile Rogers, Babyface, Prince and many, many other black people and made R&B and Hip Hop themed music as well as pop. So have countless others. Sheeran has had number ones with Pharrell & Beyonce, or Gaga & Beyonce or Taylor Swift & Kendrick Lamar.....are these people just collaborating or making so called 'black' music to make themselves seem cool and then ditching them when they make more 'white' music.
Was MJ doing the opposite when he teamed up with Eddie Van Halen or Slash? Surely that was the exact same as what JT is being accused of? Selling out to the white audience by liaising with white rock acts.
No. Because he didn't think of music as having colour.
I know if I made music I would make the stuff that's inspired me my whole life. It would be a mix of genres and I hope I wouldn't have to think 'I best not make music that sounds this way as I may get accused of cultural appropriation'. If Justin wants to make an R&B album then a country one next then great, he should.
This is 2018 and I thought the world was a great big melting pot where we all lived together & influenced each other. Maybe not, maybe we should stick to our own?
I may be accused of being pedantic, but it's probably worth noting that Slash isn't white. He's mixed race. His Mother is black. |
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Post by respect77 on Jan 11, 2018 16:45:52 GMT
Of course I can see where the resentment stems from in the black community, but blaming Elvis himself for it is misplaced. He merely followed his heart musically and always spoke with nothing but respect of those who influenced and inspired him. I think the same applies to this issue in general. You can discuss the problem without attacking individual artists for making the music they love - unless you think the end goal should be for white artists to make 'white music' and black artists to make 'black music' (whatever both are supposed to mean), which I hope no one believes. Again, the resentment towards JT does not simply come from the fact that he makes "black music". It's the accompanying examples of disrespect towards black legends that he was clearly inspired by (Janet, Prince etc.) is why he was criticized. To turn this into a "why can't white people make black music?" issue is ignoring a whole lot of the point that was made about JT. Bruno Mars is Hispanic and Jewish, but no one seems to have a problem with him not doing latin music or klezmer, but more funk, R&B etc. That's because people do not get that sense of disrespect from him that they do feel in JT. |
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,492
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Post by TonyR on Jan 11, 2018 19:24:27 GMT
Of course I can see where the resentment stems from in the black community, but blaming Elvis himself for it is misplaced. He merely followed his heart musically and always spoke with nothing but respect of those who influenced and inspired him. I think the same applies to this issue in general. You can discuss the problem without attacking individual artists for making the music they love - unless you think the end goal should be for white artists to make 'white music' and black artists to make 'black music' (whatever both are supposed to mean), which I hope no one believes. Again, the resentment towards JT does not simply come from the fact that he makes "black music". It's the accompanying examples of disrespect towards black legends that he was clearly inspired by (Janet, Prince etc.) is why he was criticized. To turn this into a "why can't white people make black music?" issue is ignoring a whole lot of the point that was made about JT. Bruno Mars is Hispanic and Jewish, but no one seems to have a problem with him not doing latin music or klezmer, but more funk, R&B etc. That's because people do not get that sense of disrespect from him that they do feel in JT. But disrespecting them? It seems pretty tame in the world of general RnB or hip hop banter to me. I agree it's a bit shit, but nothing compared to what a lot of singers in those genres do, especially rap. These throwaway lines are normally just thrown in for cheap publicity, it doesn't define him as a man or artist. It's not as if he's not blatant in his partnerships with Timbaland or Jay-Z, most times they seem more like duos rather than a single artist. From what I've heard from him, he gives full kudos to his black producers and songwriting partners. |
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Post by jaywonder on Jan 11, 2018 20:05:10 GMT
Just to give a bit of my stance, while a lot of people feel Justin has been appropriating black music (over the years, I've seen people view him as a mediocre talent who's only saved by his production teams or "vessel" for The Neptunes or Timbaland), I think quite a bit of the ill feelings is from how the mainstream press built him up, from such instances like Rolling Stone calling him "the New King of Pop".
There's an issue of white artists making what some would call "black music" and having huge success with it yet when black artists themselves make the same kind of music, it's viewed differently, and not always in a good way.
On what TonyR said, it's true artists make music from what influenced them. It's interesting because Teena Marie, a white artist, had a mostly black audience (she only had one top 10 album on the Billboard 200 but all but 2 of her 14 albums made the top 20 on the R&B chart) and it was the same for artists like Bobby Caldwell and others. Some feel Justin simply isn't genuine.
I think some are just now realizing he's pretty corny LOL
From what I've seen in the press over the years, it looks like everyone, black or white, are more critical of him. Why can't people be this way against Taylor Swift. She's the real enemy lol
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milo
Wondering Who
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Post by milo on Jan 11, 2018 21:15:19 GMT
White people will never get it the issue of cultural appropriation because they’re not affected by it. So they will dismiss the grievances from the black community and will deflect from the real issue turning the argument to the other way claiming that black people complaining about white artists appropriating black music means that it’s black people who are segregating the music business when the real issue is the veiled segregation that are done by the white system which benefits white artists and victimize black artists. No, lets focus on how black people are bullying "poor Justin Timberlake". But the same people have the nerve of talking about "reverse racism" against Justin Timberlake, the absurdity of this claim resides on the ignorance about what is systemic racism constitutes in our society. A system designed to make black people fail and white people to succeed. But white people will never acknowledge this because they don’t suffer the effects, so it doesn’t exist to them.
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Post by aazzaabb on Jan 12, 2018 0:10:21 GMT
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Post by SmoothGangsta on Jan 12, 2018 1:15:36 GMT
They look like they had fun making that, anyway. |
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Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
