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Post by respect77 on Apr 17, 2018 16:07:53 GMT
Is she underrated?
Overrated?
Is she unfairly forgotten?
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Post by ghost on Apr 17, 2018 18:55:04 GMT
I gotta be honest, I don't think she has aged well, as an artist. Her music sounds very of its time, and whilst albums like "HIStory" and "Dangerous" still sound exciting and fresh today, even Janet's biggest hits don't really sound all that important or vital anymore.
Her fans act as if she was blackballed by the industry and unfairly maligned due to her race and her last name, but Michael had a lot more to contend with publicly and personally and his music or career never suffered the way Janets has. That is a testament to the strength, power and longevity of his work, and ultimately the throwaway nature of most of Janets. Harsh? Maybe. But it's true.
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Post by respect77 on Apr 17, 2018 20:09:25 GMT
I am of two minds when it comes to Janet. On the one hand, I agree with you that her fans tend to overrate her. I have even read some say that from the 1990s on Janet is more relevant than Michael, which is ridiculous, especially globally. I also agree that her music didn't hold up as well as Michael's.
But at the same time I think she was a very influential artist, especially for female pop girls. She (along with Madonna) has been the blueprint for artists like Britney, Beyonce etc. And I feel that in the general media Janet is rarely given credit for that.
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Post by Snow White on Apr 17, 2018 21:09:50 GMT
Do Janet's fans need to magnify her importance and significance in music history to compensate it's not as big as they claim? Because if it's not that, I don't get their constant attempts to put her on the same level with Michael or something even the likes of Madonna, Whitney, Mariah, etc. Janet's catalogue is nowhere near as strong as Madonna's, let alone Michael's
I won't deny out of the Jackson siblings, she's the second most talented, she had perseverance and dedication to have a career in her own right being successful on it and many acts who are successful today have credited Janet as an influence in their careers but I just don't get why her fans over credit her.
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Post by Russg on Apr 18, 2018 6:40:00 GMT
I gotta be honest, I don't think she has aged well, as an artist. Her music sounds very of its time, and whilst albums like "HIStory" and "Dangerous" still sound exciting and fresh today, even Janet's biggest hits don't really sound all that important or vital anymore. Her fans act as if she was blackballed by the industry and unfairly maligned due to her race and her last name, but Michael had a lot more to contend with publicly and personally and his music or career never suffered the way Janets has. That is a testament to the strength, power and longevity of his work, and ultimately the throwaway nature of most of Janets. Harsh? Maybe. But it's true. I'll concede that her post-00s output hasn't been that memorable, but how can you say albums like RN1814, The Velvet Rope and janet are throwaway? In the late 80s/early 90s she was unstoppable and created some of the best pop music of the time. Even MJ himself aped the look and sound of RN1814 for his own Dangerous album.
To deny that the Superbowl didn't have a devastating effect on her career is simply denying the facts. She was still getting regular mainstream airplay and having Billboard hits right up until the day of that infamous performance, and the industry literally shunned her overnight due to the outrage by middle America at the sight of a black womans nipple. It doesn't seem to matter that we've seen everything but Madonna's internal organs, it seems to be a different story if you're a black woman.
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Post by ghost on Apr 18, 2018 6:48:07 GMT
I gotta be honest, I don't think she has aged well, as an artist. Her music sounds very of its time, and whilst albums like "HIStory" and "Dangerous" still sound exciting and fresh today, even Janet's biggest hits don't really sound all that important or vital anymore. Her fans act as if she was blackballed by the industry and unfairly maligned due to her race and her last name, but Michael had a lot more to contend with publicly and personally and his music or career never suffered the way Janets has. That is a testament to the strength, power and longevity of his work, and ultimately the throwaway nature of most of Janets. Harsh? Maybe. But it's true. I'll concede that her post-00s output hasn't been that memorable, but how can you say albums like RN1814, The Velvet Rope and janet are throwaway? In the late 80s/early 90s she was unstoppable and created some of the best pop music of the time. Even MJ himself aped the look and sound of RN1814 for his own Dangerous album.
To deny that the Superbowl didn't have a devastating effect on her career is simply denying the facts. She was still getting regular mainstream airplay and having Billboard hits right up until the day of that infamous performance, and the industry literally shunned her overnight due to the outrage by middle America at the sight of a black womans nipple. It doesn't seem to matter that we've seen everything but Madonna's internal organs, it seems to be a different story if you're a black woman.
You admitted yourself that her post-00s output wasn't that memorable and then you wonder why the industry and the record buying public stopped caring? Do you not think the two could be connected?
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486 
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Post by TonyR on Apr 18, 2018 13:39:14 GMT
I'll concede that her post-00s output hasn't been that memorable, but how can you say albums like RN1814, The Velvet Rope and janet are throwaway? In the late 80s/early 90s she was unstoppable and created some of the best pop music of the time. Even MJ himself aped the look and sound of RN1814 for his own Dangerous album.
To deny that the Superbowl didn't have a devastating effect on her career is simply denying the facts. She was still getting regular mainstream airplay and having Billboard hits right up until the day of that infamous performance, and the industry literally shunned her overnight due to the outrage by middle America at the sight of a black womans nipple. It doesn't seem to matter that we've seen everything but Madonna's internal organs, it seems to be a different story if you're a black woman.
You admitted yourself that her post-00s output wasn't that memorable and then you wonder why the industry and the record buying public stopped caring? Do you not think the two could be connected?
Exactly. I stopped caring about her musical output years ago despite being a mad fan in the early 90's and it was nothing to do with Superbowl. And the Madonna comparison, I don't think is much to do with race. The fact is Madonna was never stupid enough to do anything like that on America's most family friendly TV event. The over the top stuff she did was late night or for her own audience. And anyway, in the early 90s she was the subject of a massive middle America backlash also which led to very low sales of Erotica and other albums until Ray Of Light in 1997. So you're misremembering or not around if you think she's always been treated fairly. In the UK I don't remembering Janet being that much of a big deal as much as Madonna, Britney or Gaga. Control was a moderate success and RN1814 & janet were a bit bigger but her biggest singles were TTWLG (number 2 to Queen & George Michael I think) and Together Again was a big Top 10 hit. There was also TBTILAF with Luther. But I think most people would struggle to name more than 3 or 4 songs. I still think janet and 1814 are brilliant. I saw her live twice & she was fantastic. But after TVR she never released anything of note and I persisted in giving it all a try. If after Superbowl she had made songs as good as if, TTWLG, Got Til It's Gone etc, she could have recovered. All this blaming it on race or JT etc. is a get out clause. It doesn't explain why she didn't succeed in Europe post the event. |
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Post by MattyJam on Apr 18, 2018 15:29:32 GMT
You admitted yourself that her post-00s output wasn't that memorable and then you wonder why the industry and the record buying public stopped caring? Do you not think the two could be connected?
Exactly. I stopped caring about her musical output years ago despite being a mad fan in the early 90's and it was nothing to do with Superbowl. And the Madonna comparison, I don't think is much to do with race. The fact is Madonna was never stupid enough to do anything like that on America's most family friendly TV event. The over the top stuff she did was late night or for her own audience. And anyway, in the early 90s she was the subject of a massive middle America backlash also which led to very low sales of Erotica and other albums until Ray Of Light in 1997. So you're misremembering or not around if you think she's always been treated fairly. In the UK I don't remembering Janet being that much of a big deal as much as Madonna, Britney or Gaga. Control was a moderate success and RN1814 & janet were a bit bigger but her biggest singles were TTWLG (number 2 to Queen & George Michael I think) and Together Again was a big Top 10 hit. There was also TBTILAF with Luther. But I think most people would struggle to name more than 3 or 4 songs. I still think janet and 1814 are brilliant. I saw her live twice & she was fantastic. But after TVR she never released anything of note and I persisted in giving it all a try. If after Superbowl she had made songs as good as if, TTWLG, Got Til It's Gone etc, she could have recovered. All this blaming it on race or JT etc. is a get out clause. It doesn't explain why she didn't succeed in Europe post the event. Well, she hasn't exactly helped herself since the Superbowl either. She's flaked out and cancelled multiple concert dates on several of her tours. And she never really put in the effort to corner the European market either. When MJ fell out of favour with US audiences, he toured Europe extensively on both Dangerous and History tours. Janet was on the precipice of becoming a big star in Europe, selling out arenas and doing really well with her singles during the The Velvet Rope era. Then she scrapped her European All For You tour and never truly recovered. It was a series of bad decisions that has led Janet to where she is today. Did Nipplegate hurt her career Stateside? Yes, I believe it did, but she also has to take some of the responsibility on her shoulders, as she has done very little to win people back round in the subsequent years. |
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Post by respect77 on Apr 18, 2018 17:29:59 GMT
What I find surprising how much her fan base evaporated in the 2000s. Even when artists don't sell records that well any more, they usually have touring to fall back on. Madonna, Bruce Springsteen, the Rolling Stones etc. are all big touring acts even if their albums don't sell that well any more as in their hey day. But their concerts sell out quickly. But Janet struggled even in that area from the 2000s on and she had to cancel tours and eventually would have been content with being an opening act for MJ and her brothers (that was the family idea when they bothered MJ to tour with them around 2008-09). That's a big fall from grace after the 1990s.
So that tells me that she could never really build a strong, loyal fan base like many other artists do. Her fans were probably always more casual fans and fickle fans. Of course, she does have her hard core fans, but this seems to be a much smaller crowd than for other superstars. Here in Europe she was always though of more as "MJ's little sister" and here I don't think she ever had a huge fan base that was independent of MJ.
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Post by MattyJam on Apr 18, 2018 17:58:57 GMT
What I find surprising how much her fan base evaporated in the 2000s. Even when artists don't sell records that well any more, they usually have touring to fall back on. Madonna, Bruce Springsteen, the Rolling Stones etc. are all big touring acts even if their albums don't sell that well any more as in their hey day. But their concerts sell out quickly. But Janet struggled even in that area from the 2000s on and she had to cancel tours and eventually would have been content with being an opening act for MJ and her brothers (that was the family idea when they bothered MJ to tour with them around 2008-09). That's a big fall from grace after the 1990s. So that tells me that she could never really build a strong, loyal fan base like many other artists do. Her fans were probably always more casual fans and fickle fans. Of course, she does have her hard core fans, but this seems to be a much smaller crowd than for other superstars. Here in Europe she was always though of more as "MJ's little sister" and here I don't think she ever had a huge fan base that was independent of MJ. I think you're right. In Europe, I think her entire audience were made up of MJ fans. I think she probably grew more of an independent fanbase Stateside, but it'd be naive to claim that being the sister of MJ didn't benefit her greatly on both sides of the pond. |
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Post by Snow White on Apr 18, 2018 20:49:24 GMT
This analysis of Janet's popularity and record sales made by MJD/Chart Masters proves her biggest market has always been USA and most of her 70+ million copies come from there too not having much a fan base in the rest of the globe. I knew I wasn't wrong when I said she doesn't have a big fan base the Hispanic American countries. The biggest markets which are Brazil, Mexico and Argentina don't have available numbers for her sales. I'll put 2 of her biggest sellers to illustrate my point. I'll leave the link if you're interested in checking the full analysis: chartmasters.org/2017/04/cspc-janet-jackson-popularity-analysis/Control (1986) America US – 7,000,000 Canada – 325,000 Argentina – N/A Brazil – N/A Mexico – N/A Asia – 400,000 Japan – 250,000 Oceania Australia – 100,000 New Zealand – 20,000 Europe – 1,080,000 UK – 575,000 France – N/A Germany – 125,000 Italy – N/A Spain – N/A Sweden – N/A Netherlands – 125,000 Switzerland – 25,000 Austria – 5,000 Finland – N/A World – 9,200,000 NB: N/A means no specific number is available. Sales from the country are still accounted for in the Worldwide estimate by using figure patterns of both the artist and the country’s market. Countries not displayed in this fixed panel are factored in also. Janet (1993) America US – 8,000,000 Canada – 400,000 Argentina – N/A Brazil – N/A Mexico – N/A Asia – 1,025,000 Japan – 600,000 Oceania Australia – 225,000 New Zealand – 30,000 Europe – 2,330,000 UK – 700,000 France – 240,000 Germany – 550,000 Italy – 90,000 Spain – 50,000 Sweden – 65,000 Netherlands – 130,000 Switzerland – 50,000 Austria – 35,000 Finland – N/A World – 12,600,000 |
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Post by Russg on Apr 19, 2018 5:48:59 GMT
I'll concede that her post-00s output hasn't been that memorable, but how can you say albums like RN1814, The Velvet Rope and janet are throwaway? In the late 80s/early 90s she was unstoppable and created some of the best pop music of the time. Even MJ himself aped the look and sound of RN1814 for his own Dangerous album.
To deny that the Superbowl didn't have a devastating effect on her career is simply denying the facts. She was still getting regular mainstream airplay and having Billboard hits right up until the day of that infamous performance, and the industry literally shunned her overnight due to the outrage by middle America at the sight of a black womans nipple. It doesn't seem to matter that we've seen everything but Madonna's internal organs, it seems to be a different story if you're a black woman.
You admitted yourself that her post-00s output wasn't that memorable and then you wonder why the industry and the record buying public stopped caring? Do you not think the two could be connected?
No, I don't think the two are connected. Every veteran artist has a creative peak early on in their career, but very few completely fall off the radar the way Janet did, literally overnight. All For You was a stepdown from her 90s albums artistically, but it still got a tonne of airplay and sold a decent amount. It wasn't until middle America caught a glimpse of her nipple that everything changed for Janet. Why are MJ fans such bitches about any artist who has ever been compared to MJ? Janet, JT, Beyonce... you guys are savage and it's so unnecessary. |
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Post by respect77 on Apr 19, 2018 7:31:43 GMT
I think calling others "bitches" for a different opinion what is savage and unnecessary. I see people expressing opinions. It may surprise you but MJ fans aren't obliged to like every other artist. All of these artists are being discussed in other, non-MJ related forums and there as well there are lots of different opinions about them and lo and behold, they get criticism elsewhere as well, not only on MJ forums.
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TonyR
The Legend Continues
Posts: 8,486
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Post by TonyR on Apr 19, 2018 8:20:46 GMT
I think in summary answer to the question, Janet's place in pop music history is quite fairly evaluated.
She's not on the same level as Madonna or Whitney, nor does she deserve to be.
She's known for 3 great albums and someone who peaked in the early 90's - fair.
I think she is shown respect for being more than Michael's sister - fair.
I think she does get kudos from other female pop/R&B singers for being a pioneer - fair.
Personally I'd rate her higher than Gaga and I don't think history will do that, but that's just my opinion.
Also, as opinions go, I'd rate If as one of the best songs & videos ever made by anyone ever, and probably 99% of the UK haven't even heard of it. But that's the way (love) goes.
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Post by jaywonder on Apr 20, 2018 5:48:52 GMT
I think after the Superbowl, Janet's momentum was killed off from 2004 to 2008, but as time wore on, people actually missed her and began re-evaluating her place in music history'
Do I think she's been undervalued? Yes, but think people are coming around again to see how much of an impact she had and how talented she is.
The more I think about it, Janet with Control helped usher in New Jack Swing. While Teddy Riley is the face of NJS, Jam and Lewis' productions with Janet, Alexander O'Neal, and Cherrelle were the albums that really started the sound. Rhythm Nation is a undisputed masterpiece and Control is one of the best pop albums ever.
I'm glad people are appreciating her again with Unbreakable (great album and better than her 2 previous efforts) and the SOTW tour. I'm happy to see her active again.
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Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
Dec 5, 2020 18:51:15 GMT
